1
1 STATE OF FLORIDA
CONSTITUTION REVISION COMMISSION
2
3
4
5
COMMISSION MEETING
6
7
8
9
DATE: March 23, 1998
10
TIME: Commenced at 9:00 a.m.
11 Concluded at 5:00 p.m.
12 PLACE: The Senate Chamber
The Capitol
13 Tallahassee, Florida
14 REPORTED BY: KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
MONA L. WHIDDON
15 Court Reporters
Division of Administrative Hearings
16 The DeSoto Building
1230 Apalachee Parkway
17 Tallahassee, Florida
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
2
1 APPEARANCES
2 W. DEXTER DOUGLASS, CHAIRMAN
3 CARLOS ALFONSO
CLARENCE E. ANTHONY
4 ANTONIO L. ARGIZ
JUDGE THOMAS H. BARKDULL, JR.
5 MARTHA WALTERS BARNETT
PAT BARTON
6 ROBERT M. BROCHIN
THE HONORABLE ROBERT A. BUTTERWORTH
7 KEN CONNOR
CHRIS CORR
8 SENATOR ANDER CRENSHAW
VALERIE EVANS
9 MARILYN EVANS-JONES
BARBARA WILLIAMS FORD-COATES
10 ELLEN CATSMAN FREIDIN
PAUL HAWKES
11 WILLIAM CLAY HENDERSON
THE HONORABLE TONI JENNINGS
12 THE HONORABLE GERALD KOGAN
DICK LANGLEY
13 JOHN F. LOWNDES
STANLEY MARSHALL
14 JACINTA MATHIS
JON LESTER MILLS
15 FRANK MORSANI
ROBERT LOWRY NABORS
16 CARLOS PLANAS (ABSENT)
JUDITH BYRNE RILEY
17 KATHERINE FERNANDEZ RUNDLE
SENATOR JIM SCOTT
18 H. T. SMITH
ALAN C. SUNDBERG
19 JAMES HAROLD THOMPSON
PAUL WEST
20 JUDGE GERALD T. WETHERINGTON
STEPHEN NEAL ZACK
21
IRA H. LEESFIELD (ABSENT)
22 LYRA BLIZZARD LOGAN (ABSENT)
23
24
25
3
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We could go ahead with the
3 formalities if that is agreeable. Let's go ahead and
4 have our opening and then we'll temporarily recess
5 until Style and Drafting returns to the chamber.
6 Would everybody please check in, please.
7 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
8 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
9 commissioners indicate your presence.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We need everybody to sign in
11 so we can have the opening. We now have a quorum, I
12 think.
13 Madam Secretary, I think -- wait a minute, we
14 have one more signing in. All right. If all
15 unauthorized persons would please leave the chamber.
16 And if you haven't indicated your presence, please do
17 so.
18 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum present, Mr. Chairman.
19 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If you would come
21 to order, please. If everybody could take their
22 seats, we will have the opening prayer. We're going
23 to have the opening prayer if everybody could -- would
24 everybody please rise. This morning our opening
25 prayer is given by Reverend Mark Broadhead of
4
1 Fellowship Baptist Church in Tallahassee. Reverend,
2 welcome.
3 REVEREND BROADHEAD: Thank you. Would you join
4 me in prayer, please?
5 Eternal God, we come before you this morning with
6 great expectations for this day. Already there have
7 been meetings, public and private, and conversations
8 that will help shape the course of many people's
9 lives. Already there is a sense of anticipation. You
10 have called these men and women to a special task and
11 grant them your guidance. As discussions and debates
12 go on this day, be present and let your presence be
13 known.
14 We ask that because there are so many needs you
15 will help keep self-interest in check for the good of
16 the greater people. We ask that your grace flow
17 through each person who will be a part of the process.
18 Let your peace be known to all who will be affected by
19 today's decisions. As this day progresses, we pray
20 that you will keep minds alert, tempers in check, and
21 senses of humor alive and fresh. Allow for creativity
22 which is exciting and contagious. For these things we
23 pray to your honor and glory. Amen.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The pledge of allegiance this
25 morning will be led by Laurel McDaniel and Christine
5
1 Kretschman both of Tallahassee. Laurel is the
2 daughter of our Secretary. Would you ladies come and
3 lead us in the pledge.
4 (Pledge of Allegiance.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're going to be
6 in temporary recess until the members of Style and
7 Drafting Committee return to the chamber. Keep the
8 floor secure, please. I would -- before you break
9 out, let me introduce three pages -- other pages that
10 are with us this morning. They are Brandon J. Miller
11 who's in seventh grade from Maitland Middle School.
12 May R. Dewitt who is from the seventh grade in
13 Maitland Middle School. And Yokinta Camille Mathis
14 who's in eighth grade from Hiwassee Christian Academy,
15 would you stand. You may tell from her familiar name
16 that she's the daughter of our commissioner. And
17 Benita Thomas who is also with us this morning. And
18 we're delighted to have you. We'll stand in recess
19 and the chamber will be secure.
20 (Brief recess.)
21 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
22 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
23 commissioners indicate your presence.
24 (Pause.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's see if we could --
6
1 somebody check in the back and around to see if we can
2 get everybody in the chamber. If you haven't
3 registered your presence, please do so. (Pause.)
4 Okay. We're already about 50 minutes late getting
5 started. I wonder if everybody could come on and sign
6 in. We're still missing -- I know they're here, I've
7 seen them.
8 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
9 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
10 commissioners indicate your presence.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If you'll come to
12 order, please. Commissioners, I wonder if you'll take
13 your seats, please. Will everybody take their seats,
14 please. Thank you. Everybody is seated. I wonder if
15 you'll give me your attention for a minute. I'd like
16 to make a few remarks before we start.
17 This has been a great experience and a wonderful
18 experience for all of us. I know it has for me. This
19 group to me has become not only collegial but we've
20 become friends and we've become respectful of each
21 other and we've debated the issues from time to time
22 with great respect for each other and we've done a
23 tremendous job in addressing our problems.
24 I've had help as Chairman from each one of you
25 from time to time. I've had great input from each one
7
1 of you. My task as Chairman was to make this as open
2 a group as possible, to make our work as open as
3 possible, and to address it in the manner in which I
4 believe we have addressed it.
5 Last week we completed what was a monumental
6 task. We reviewed and proposed many proposals.
7 Likewise, I want to tell you that our Committee on
8 Style and Drafting has received these approved
9 proposals and they've been developing groupings for
10 the consideration of the commission. They've worked
11 long and hard. They worked yesterday, they worked
12 this morning starting at 7:00 and they've done a great
13 job and I think we all owe them a word of great
14 thanks.
15 Before we advance to their report, I believe it
16 would be productive for me, as Chairman, to discuss
17 the process with you. I've had several members voice
18 differing opinions relating to the effect of last
19 week's voting. The effect of this week's voting and
20 the effect of adopting or rejecting a grouping
21 recommendation of the committee, Style and Drafting.
22 I think these are valid concerns and should be
23 discussed before we advance to specific proposals.
24 In addition, it's no secret that at least one of
25 the issues, Reapportionment Commission, has received a
8
1 great deal of attention by the press and I would
2 presume by many others. Stories have been written
3 that I don't necessarily agree with discussing things
4 like hardball politics, arm-twisting threats and this
5 sort of thing. I don't put a great deal of stock in
6 this because I know the people here and I know the
7 people that might be accused of doing such a thing and
8 I would not accept that as an accurate description.
9 I'm sure we've had many people express their
10 concerns one way or the other on this issue. I know I
11 have. And let's prove that this business about how
12 we're affected by outside influences at the last
13 minute after all these votes is wrong.
14 I think we can arise above politics. We can
15 arise above, as we have many times, other
16 considerations, maybe some of our own personal
17 connections that cause us concerns from time to time.
18 And let's show the merits of this process in an open,
19 civil, and democratic manner and prove that this
20 commission continues to stand for what is right, not
21 what is wrong with or for government.
22 I want to add to that that I kind of feel like
23 our group that we've become sort of a family. And
24 we've been a pretty functional family for the most
25 part. And it's not good for us to even consider
9
1 becoming a dysfunctional family at this late date and
2 I don't believe that we will.
3 But like in every family, mine, yours, and
4 everybody else's there are great disagreements from
5 time to time. And when the majority rules then we all
6 accept it and we go our way and we still are family
7 when we finish.
8 And I know that some siblings that we have here
9 may have really taken issue with some of the votes
10 that we had as a majority as 22 votes and whatever.
11 And for every one there is another one that all of us
12 in some form or fashion as siblings lost the support
13 of our other siblings. So as brothers and sisters
14 here working together as a family, I hope today that
15 we can proceed in that spirit and I know that we will.
16 And I commend to you the conduct and the way that we
17 have done this.
18 Relating to the process, there are two main
19 issues that have been raised with me. The first issue
20 relates to the effect of our votes last week. I
21 believe that we took our votes last Tuesday,
22 March 17th, we took final votes on individual
23 proposals. In short, we sent to Style and Drafting a
24 final list or proposal that this commission voted they
25 wanted to put on the ballot. The only question
10
1 remaining is the form of these proposals that they
2 would appear on the ballot, grouped or individual.
3 To be thorough and fair, however, I asked
4 Commissioner Barkdull to review our adopted rules,
5 review the February 24th, 1998 report of the committee
6 and calendar and review all the transcripts of our
7 proceedings that might relate to this issue. He
8 prepared a memorandum summarizing the salient points
9 of the transcript. And I believe that it supports the
10 desire of the commission to narrow issues and to take
11 final votes at the meeting last Tuesday which we did.
12 Based on that review, it appears that these
13 individual proposals have been ratified by the
14 commission and for those members who wish to defeat a
15 proposal now, even now, two options exist. One, make
16 a motion to reconsider a proposal. My -- I think the
17 rules provide, I can't find anything otherwise, that
18 on a motion to reconsider it would have to be made by
19 a person that voted with the prevailing side and it
20 would require a majority vote for the commission to
21 reconsider it. And if that's the case, we would then
22 reconsider. You may offer an amendment. And one
23 other way that you could do it would be offer an
24 amendment to just get rid of the proposal and that, of
25 course, would take 22 affirmative votes to do that.
11
1 The second issue raised relates to the groupings
2 and the effect of groupings not receiving 22 votes as
3 recommended by -- on the matter recommended by the
4 committee. I requested Commissioner Barkdull review
5 our rules on this matter. At the time we adopted Rule
6 5, it's interesting to note that the exact issue was
7 discussed by this commission. Specifically it was
8 determined that if the recommended groupings are not
9 adopted by 22 votes, the individual proposals would go
10 on the ballot as separate proposals and/or would be
11 available for subsequent groupings which we can still
12 do.
13 Like the discussion last July, I would find that
14 recommended groupings are recommendations. If
15 ratified by 22 votes, that is the grouping. In the
16 alternative, if defeated, the groupings fall apart.
17 And after the groupings fall apart, the individual
18 proposals then are placed on the ballot on a less
19 group with something else by 22 votes in some other
20 manner.
21 Relating to ballot language and title, according
22 to Rule 5.42, it's the obligation of the Committee on
23 Style and Drafting to prepare ballot language. Style
24 and Drafting Committee has purposely delayed
25 developing some language, I understand, it may not be
12
1 altogether true, but it may be. Since that time the
2 committee's carefully reviewed applicable case law and
3 prepared ballot language and ballot titles. That's
4 what they were doing this morning.
5 I believe that the commission can adopt and amend
6 the ballot language by a simple majority vote. Like
7 earlier votes, this language was not available to them
8 until today and it only seems fair to allow
9 commissioners, by a simple majority vote, to amend
10 ballot language. This ruling would be consistent with
11 our treatment of amendment to proposals when they were
12 first considered by the commission.
13 Everything that they're sending back to us has
14 been voted on at least three times favorably and
15 received 22 votes most of the time and certainly last
16 time. And therefore, we have voted three to five
17 times on these amendments. I think it's unreasonable
18 to expect our family to stay a family if we just keep
19 voting as long as one member or two members or less
20 than a majority want to keep voting.
21 Therefore, I suggest that we proceed in the
22 manner that I've discussed. And I would hope that
23 that would meet with the approval of the commission
24 and I would hope that we can proceed and proceed in a
25 manner which I've outlined to you.
13
1 Commissioner Morsani.
2 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: I rise this morning with a
3 heavy heart. Last week I almost resigned from this
4 commission and I thought about it and I decided late
5 in the day last Tuesday not to do so. I did not, nor
6 many people in this room, campaign for this position.
7 I received a call about 8:00 one night from President
8 Jennings asking me if I would be on the Constitution
9 Revision Commission. I said, I don't know anything
10 about the Constitution, I'll have to think about it.
11 She said, I would encourage you to come on. So I
12 thought about it and I decided to do so.
13 Ladies and gentlemen, Commissioners, I had never
14 met Toni Jennings, I had never given a dime to one of
15 her campaigns. I have never written her a letter
16 about supporting of any piece of legislation. And I
17 will say to this day, President Jennings has never
18 asked me to vote one way or the other on any issue
19 since June of last year.
20 You know, in the automobile business we have
21 collision repair shops. Many years ago when I started
22 the first one, and a lot of people come in and you
23 have your estimate and they want you to cover their
24 deductible. So I instructed my body shop manager at
25 that time, and I was a service manager in 1962 in Fort
14
1 Lauderdale, Florida. I said when a person wants you
2 to cover their deductible, you say, Sir or Ma'am, if a
3 man will steal for you he'll steal from you. And if
4 you're going to ask me to steal for you, then you
5 automatically think I'm going to steal from you. We
6 don't run our business that way.
7 I think there is a correlation between politics
8 and business. Ms. Marilyn Evans-Jones said that there
9 would be less politics -- taking politics out of the
10 reapportionment by a commission. Whether I'm for it
11 or not is not the issue. The issue is, we didn't
12 take, unfortunately, politics out of this commission.
13 A week ago last Tuesday, I thought we had.
14 But as I started listening to whispers last
15 Tuesday about what had been going on, no one talked to
16 me, no one called me, and that's good, I'm glad no one
17 did because I probably wouldn't have talked to them
18 anyway because I'm not easily swayed by anybody.
19 That's good or bad depending on how you assess me as
20 an individual and my value system.
21 You know, I think it was either Disraeli, it
22 could Churchill. One of the back benchers came to
23 Disraeli and said they were going to change their
24 party and he said to them, You change your party for
25 principles or principles for party.
15
1 I think what we've done, unfortunately, in the
2 last ten days is change our principles and I'm very,
3 very disturbed about that. I thought for ten months
4 we had not allowed this to happen in this body. And
5 as an automobile mechanic, I'm kind of disappointed
6 because that's not how I run my business and haven't
7 for over 30 years.
8 So I think we have, numerous times during these
9 debates, we have said the public didn't have
10 confidence in the legislators because of their
11 walking -- their straddling the fences. Ladies and
12 gentlemen, I think that they can accuse us of the same
13 thing, of being political in this process in the last
14 ten days and I'm extremely disturbed. I don't think
15 that was our mission.
16 I thought our mission was to do what was right
17 for the 15 million people in this great state. So to
18 paraphrase, President Kennedy when he said, Not what
19 my country can do for me, but what I can do for my
20 country. I think we are not doing what's in the best
21 interest on some of these issues for our state of
22 Florida and I'm disturbed. I had to tell you. I
23 apologize for taking your time but that's not what
24 we're about. That's not right. And we're doing the
25 wrong thing. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
16
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you, Commissioner
2 Morsani. Commissioner Scott.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I personally agree with what
4 Commissioner Morsani has said. And what I want to
5 focus back on is where we started and the rules that
6 we had. And so far in Rule 5, if you look at it, the
7 Style and Drafting Committee shall review all
8 proposals receiving approval of a majority of the
9 commission and shall prepare recommended ballot
10 language.
11 Well we changed majority to mean receiving 22
12 votes because we were trying to eliminate some
13 proposals. Style and Drafting may recommend
14 amendments and may recommend the groupings. A
15 proposal on consideration -- and this has not been
16 changed -- after having been disposed of, may be
17 amended or grouped by a vote of at least 22 members of
18 the commission, that's fine. That's 5.3 following
19 what the Chairman said. And I do appreciate the tone
20 and the tenor of his remarks.
21 But 5.4 says final adoption of a proposal shall
22 require a vote of at least 22 members. Now, let me
23 try to get this in some perspective for you. There is
24 a statute, and I know you've all heard about it, we've
25 been dealing with it that says, for example, there has
17
1 to be 75 words in the ballot summary and that there
2 has to be a title.
3 Now, that statute also says that the wording of
4 the substance of the amendment and the ballot title to
5 appear shall be embodied, shall be embodied, in the
6 joint resolution which would be in the Legislature or
7 in the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal.
8 So therefore, acting under that, Style and Drafting
9 has come to you and will present to you proposals that
10 have in them, embodied in them, and there's been
11 several court cases interpreting this, the ballot
12 summary and the title.
13 And I submit to you in a sense of where we were,
14 the change we made that was made by several of us on
15 the Rules Committee in the back, in no time did
16 anybody, and I'm talking fairness now, we're going to
17 have to debate this for a long time. No one
18 anticipated that we were abolishing 5.4 which says
19 final approval of the proposal which will have in it
20 all this would require 22 votes.
21 Now, that aside, several members I know on many
22 of these proposals, could be the firearms, could be
23 the primary -- open primary or whatever appropriate
24 words to describe that. I think people thought
25 whether it's grouped or not grouped, whether it's
18
1 grouped or not grouped, they would have a final vote
2 on it.
3 Now, let me tell you the effect of what is -- of
4 Judge Barkdull's letter. We have, or we may have,
5 conflicting proposals, directly conflicting proposals.
6 And under his letter, we might have grouped them.
7 Let's take the elections package. We might have
8 grouped them. If we separate them and we take the
9 position that both of them -- because they were
10 previously single proposals approved -- go to the
11 ballot, we are then not really doing justice to our
12 final work product.
13 So I would urge the members to reflect on this.
14 I would urge the Chair, prior to making some ruling on
15 it, that it be explored fully because otherwise I know
16 people who voted for. I know one member at least who
17 voted for, and this is not the apportionment, that
18 thought they were voting for it but when it was
19 finally back before them they would have a chance to
20 vote on it because a grouping is one, really, when you
21 think about it. The decision to group or not to
22 group.
23 But I just want to tell you that this, whatever
24 we do here is going to be challenged as things have
25 been challenged so far. In one of the subjects we're
19
1 dealing with, the previous initiative proposal, was
2 thrown off the ballot.
3 Another instance in this case, back in '82, a
4 legislative proposal was thrown off the ballot because
5 the ballot language in summary was not appropriate,
6 both of those cases. One was the Marine Fisheries'
7 issue. I think the other was lobbyists and financial
8 disclosure. So this is not just a simple issue.
9 That's not to mention the question of the
10 fairness, regardless of the issue, of having final --
11 there's not 22 votes, let's say we find out we made a
12 big mistake and now two-thirds or whatever. Whatever
13 number. I just think it's not the way to -- for us to
14 proceed. And I agree with the statement of the
15 family. And, Commissioner Morsani, I thought about
16 resigning, and not just last week, several times I
17 thought about it. And one of the reasons I didn't was
18 because of the people on here and the people that I've
19 gotten to know and some of whom I've known and
20 respected for years.
21 But I would urge you in that sense to consider
22 whether you really want to have something that may not
23 enjoy a support of 22 members, recognizing that we
24 have to put on a proposal that has to embody this
25 ballot language which we just have gotten recently,
20
1 regardless of the reasons, in the last two or three
2 days over the weekend that you want to think carefully
3 about going forward without requiring that -- the
4 final vote of 22 votes. So since we're discussing
5 this, and I'm glad you are, Mr. Chairman, in
6 connection with all the issues, I just wanted to make
7 those points because we've been thinking about it for
8 some time.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Question, Commissioner Scott?
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioners, your
11 concern, as you expressed, the vote that it would take
12 to establish the ballot language, is that the point
13 you were trying to get at?
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: No, Commissioner Barkdull.
15 What I'm getting at is the ballot language, the ballot
16 title and the ballot language has to be embodied in
17 the Constitutional Revision Commission proposal and
18 that's what we've tried to do and it's --
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: What I'm getting to --
20 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I'm not finished. So my
21 point is that under our rules the final vote is when
22 that's done and it's right in sequence in Rule 5.5.
23 There's .1, .2 that the Chairman referred to and .5.
24 And the reason for that is that's what we have to do.
25 And if we don't do that, I want to urge you that we're
21
1 subjecting every proposal, everything we've done, and
2 a lot of good things, to a significant problem.
3 And it's unnecessary and it's done in an effort,
4 I believe, not to simplify but to affect some
5 proposals. And I don't think that's right. I think
6 it's going to be, perhaps, illegal. It's going to be
7 up to the courts or whoever. But it is not -- I mean,
8 I think that when we get this and we agree on the
9 ballot language and the proposal you're going to have
10 to have a final vote. That's what this is about and
11 that's the point I was trying to make.
12 And you can look at the statute, it's 101.161,
13 Commissioner Smith, and others, whoever wants to take
14 a look at it. It's very clear. And I think that it's
15 basically -- each one of these is now. Whether it's
16 by itself, whether it's a grouping or not, it's now a
17 proposal with the ballot language embodied in it and I
18 think it's going to require the approval of this
19 commission as it goes forward. You can't just say,
20 Well, we're going to stick this on it and stick that
21 on it but yet you can't revote any of it because that
22 can be critical to the whole issue.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, Commissioner Scott,
24 would you continue to yield for something? I agree
25 with you that we have ballot language to be
22
1 considered. But what concerns me is, until we know
2 what the groupings are, how can the Style and Drafting
3 Committee come back to the commission with any ballot
4 language because until they know what's going to be in
5 the groups, they can't prepare the ballot language?
6 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Judge Barkdull, that is not
7 what we've been operating on and we have prepared the
8 ballot language and that's what we've been doing on
9 Sundays and meeting -- some meetings late at night and
10 whatever and all day, most of the day yesterday,
11 that's what we've been doing.
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, Commissioner Scott,
13 if something is pulled out of the grouping then
14 certainly that's going to impact the proposed ballot
15 language.
16 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: That's right and then what
17 would happen is we would fix it again and pass it
18 again just like we do every legislative measure,
19 every --
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'm not disagreeing with
21 you. I just wanted to point out that when we break up
22 a grouping that's been recommended by Style and
23 Drafting and you-all have worked and put the ballot
24 language together, if there is something pulled out of
25 a grouping, obviously it's going to have to be
23
1 reconsidered by the Style and Drafting Committee for
2 ballot language.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Absolutely. And that could
4 happen today and we would go resubmit but it would
5 still come back to you as a proposal. And maybe we
6 got six things in the elections and we take three of
7 them out and put them in another, but it still has to
8 be finally voted. Otherwise, what you would be doing
9 is just totally giving to six of us, and I don't want
10 it, I'm going to tell you, the authority to do ballot
11 language that could mess up everything we have and
12 that's not right. The commission has to vote on the
13 proposal with the ballot language. That's my point
14 and that's what the statute requires.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I think we're on
16 different pages.
17 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Then fine.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley and then
19 Commissioner Wetherington is next.
20 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Thank you. First, I'd
21 like to thank Style and Drafting for the many, many
22 hours that they've put into this. And secondly, I'd
23 like to thank the Chairman for not putting me on that
24 committee. Does everybody have their blue manual?
25 Their little blue manual that has the rules in it?
24
1 I'd like to lead you through the rules. This is a
2 family, if you want to call it that, or it's supposed
3 to be a level playing field and all those good things,
4 those cliches that we use.
5 But we're also bound by the rules that we adopted
6 and that we've amended as we've gone along and I would
7 like to take you through the rules briefly to
8 substantiate my position of where we are and the
9 position that everything that goes on that ballot must
10 have had 22 affirmative votes before it goes on there.
11 First, point one. Where are the proposals now?
12 Who knows the answer to that one? The proposals now
13 are in Style and Drafting Committee. Anybody
14 disagree? If they are in Style and Drafting Committee
15 and we adjourn today, what happens to the proposals?
16 Nothing. They die in committee. So if they are in
17 committee, how do they get to be a final product of
18 the body? They have to be presented as is done by
19 Style and Drafting in this proposal before you and
20 they have to be voted out by this commission. And by
21 our rules, they have to be voted out by 22 positive
22 votes.
23 If you look at -- and by the way, letters written
24 by the Rules Chairman, in all deference, are not
25 rules, they are letters written by the rules chairman.
25
1 And as a matter of fact, the Rules Committee has never
2 met nor asked to meet to consider any of these things.
3 These have been ex parte from the rules between the
4 Chairman and the rules chairman.
5 But anyway if you look at the letter from
6 March 13th which I think accurately capsulize what we
7 voted on February 24th, Paragraph 3 of that letter,
8 Proposals receiving 22 votes are forwarded to the
9 Style and Drafting Committee. That's where they are
10 going. That's where they are.
11 Paragraph 5, Proposals receiving 22 or more votes
12 in late February will be referred to the Style and
13 Drafting Committee, that's where these proposals are.
14 Though they cannot, by the very fact that they are
15 lodged in committee have been finally voted upon.
16 Okay, let's go on.
17 Under Rule 5.4. A proposal on consideration,
18 Paragraph 3 -- that's on Page 17 of your blue
19 manual -- after having been disposed of by Style and
20 Drafting Committee, none of these yet have been
21 disposed of. Some of them will not be disposed of
22 after we get through today because they have to go
23 back to either change ballot language or maybe to
24 regroup, so they are still not disposed of. And if
25 they are not disposed of, they cannot have been
26
1 finally voted upon.
2 Paragraph 5 -- pardon me, Paragraph 4, which
3 Senator Scott read, requires for a final adoption,
4 shall require 22 votes. Remember also Rule 212
5 requires that the Style and Drafting Committee shall
6 report from its committee, which they have done, and
7 recommend to the body any amendments or groupings or
8 what else. So again, the point is they are still in
9 Style and Drafting Committee.
10 Another thing that's very important,
11 Mr. Chairman. In the discussion, part of the
12 transcript that wasn't read was when you were asked in
13 the discussion with Senator Scott when you said he was
14 asking you about the voting and you said, That's
15 correct, any grouping will require 22 votes. The
16 proposals and the groupings will all require the same
17 vote, 22 votes.
18 Now, Mr. Chairman, if you've stated -- and I
19 guess you knew that that was a final vote on many of
20 these proposals -- I very reluctantly remind you to
21 read Rule 1.7 on Page 8 which says, The Chairman shall
22 vote on final passage of all proposals. Well the
23 Chairman did not vote on 21 out of 29 of these
24 proposals that were passed last week. So surely,
25 Mr. Chairman, you did not think that was a final vote
27
1 on those either. There is another thing to consider.
2 A lot of votes, some of these things you care
3 about, some of them you don't care a lot about and
4 some of them you just assume go away, there is no
5 question about it. But as we narrow down the issues
6 that are going to be put on this ballot for the
7 15 million people of the state of Florida to look at,
8 aren't some of you thinking, You know, that one is all
9 right. But if I had to vote for just five, I wouldn't
10 vote for that one. But how are we going to know how
11 many proposals are going to be available until we know
12 how many come out of Style and Drafting, how they're
13 grouped and all the other things about them that you
14 can narrow down the number of these that you would
15 actually support? We don't know yet.
16 Right now we have ten and I don't agree with some
17 of the groupings. I don't agree with putting
18 religious freedom in with all these controversial
19 things that are in that same grouping. I don't agree
20 with putting some of the very highly contradictory
21 crossover primary elections nonpartisan school boards
22 in with ballot access and voter age of 18. I mean,
23 you're going to kill some good ones for the bad ones
24 and vice versa. So until you see all those, you
25 really don't know which final proposals you may want
28
1 to vote on.
2 But again in summary, Mr. Chairman, by your
3 voting or lack thereof I think it was obvious that
4 last week was not the final vote and that would be my
5 suggestion to the Chair.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Wetherington.
7 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: Well, I would like to
8 say that I have to respectfully disagree with
9 Commissioner Morsani who I think is a wonderful man, a
10 man of abundant goodwill, but I don't believe that any
11 member of this commission, that I'm aware of, has done
12 anything but take the higher road with respect to our
13 responsibilities.
14 There may be some people outside of this
15 commission that have called people and tried to put
16 pressure on members of the commission. I've heard of
17 some of that. And nobody has called me but I've heard
18 they called some other people and I'm sure they have
19 because a lot of people may have a lot at stake here
20 today. But I don't think that that reflects the
21 conduct of any member of the commission.
22 Now, it's very clear that there are still people
23 that still oppose some of those proposals and that
24 always raises a problem as to how long or if we're
25 ever going to get to a final vote. But nonetheless,
29
1 they are making parliamentary objections and rules
2 objections, which they have a right to make. And if
3 they are right, they should prevail on them because we
4 have to be bound by the rules. They obviously feel as
5 strongly on some of these proposals as I do.
6 If I've lost something, I'm not crying over it.
7 There's been some ones that I've had defeated. Nobody
8 has heard me cry over them and you've never heard me
9 keep pushing them on and on again. I don't believe in
10 doing that. I mean, once it's voted on, as far as I'm
11 concerned, if I've lost, I lost, although I may feel
12 strongly for it.
13 But my overall comment really is that we need to
14 do what is correct under the rules and I -- my feeling
15 is that everyone that I know on this commission has
16 acted in a -- basically an exemplary fashion. They
17 may have pushed hard for things they believe in, but
18 then again, I think people should. And I would like
19 to say that I'm very proud and privileged to be a
20 member of the commission. I think it has the same
21 high standards and ideals that it had when I began
22 with. I've heard some disturbing things but not by
23 members of the commission, by people outside, and
24 there is always going to be some of that. So I'm
25 simply reaffirming my belief in the commission.
30
1 And if it takes a little longer to get to the
2 right result on these issues, we take a little longer
3 and wherever it leads us, we go. I'm still thinking
4 about the things that have been said and we're looking
5 at the statutes, and I'm satisfied in the end we will
6 follow the rules and we will vote our consciences.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Thank you. Commissioner
8 Hawkes.
9 COMMISSIONER HAWKES: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
10 think it's fair to say that throughout this process
11 when we have used the term "grouping," we were
12 referring to exactly what and how it would appear on
13 the ballot and we consistently from the very
14 beginning, from the very first time we meant, even
15 before we started the public hearing process, to the
16 very first time we met when we started the debate in
17 chambers before the committee process and even when we
18 talked about trying to narrow it down so that Style
19 and Drafting wouldn't have to look at so many
20 proposals that probably had no chance to succeed.
21 When we refer to "grouping," we're referring to
22 what and how it would actually finally appear on the
23 ballot. And I would submit that a grouping of one is,
24 in fact, a grouping. Should the firearm proposal be
25 on the ballot all by itself? Well, if we take Style
31
1 and Drafting's position on that and we vote 22, then
2 it is.
3 If we don't believe that it ought to be on the
4 ballot by itself then we end up taking Style and
5 Drafting's position and it is. So we really have no
6 say on that particular item if, in fact, we don't
7 define grouping in a realistic way that it refers to
8 how items will appear on the ballot and what exactly
9 will appear on the ballot. And if we don't get 22
10 votes on how and what appears on the ballot, then that
11 item doesn't appear on the ballot. And I think that
12 we have all understood that to be the rule from the
13 very beginning of this process and we're not stuck on
14 having 36 different ballot questions because we all
15 believe that the groupings ought to be a little bit
16 different or something along those lines.
17 We agree with the product that comes out of here
18 so that we're united to the public and we feel that we
19 have done what the consensus and that is the
20 betterment of Florida. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor.
22 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
23 Someone once said that one man's larceny is just
24 another man's redistributing of the wealth. In other
25 words, it's all a matter of perspective. And I would
32
1 confess that when you folks voted against my proposals
2 I've often felt you've been dealing politically. And
3 when you've supported them, I felt generally that you
4 were doing the principle thing.
5 And I would just say, Commissioner Morsani, with
6 reference to your comment, that it's my intention to
7 credit every member of this commission with ultimate
8 good faith. And the fact that my proposal may be
9 being gored does not mean that I attribute sinister
10 political motivations to you but rather that we just
11 simply have an honest difference of opinion. And I
12 think we need to be very careful about impugning one
13 another's motives in this process particularly when
14 this body has served at its own time and its own
15 expense at great sacrifice. I'm convinced that people
16 are well motivated.
17 With respect to this rules issue, I want to thank
18 the Chairman for bringing this matter up in the manner
19 in which he did. Goodness knows, we've had an anxious
20 weekend as people have wondered what direction in
21 which we were going to go and how this was going to be
22 handled. And I commend you, Mr. Chairman, for just
23 simply laying all the cards on the table and giving us
24 this opportunity.
25 As we approach this issue, I would remind you of
33
1 the words of Thomas Jefferson when he commented on the
2 Federal Constitution. And he made this observation,
3 he says, Our particular protection is in that we have
4 a written Constitution. Let us not make it a blank
5 sheet of paper by construction.
6 Ladies and gentlemen, I would submit to you that
7 we have written rules that we can look to that tell us
8 how we ought to conduct our affairs. That protects
9 the minority and that protects the majority and it
10 gives us a vehicle for the conduct of the orderly
11 procession of our business. And I would observe,
12 along with Commissioner Langley, that when one looks
13 at Rule 5, we see a sequential process that's set up.
14 As we look at Rule 5.4 (3), we see the natural
15 sequence taking place, a proposal on consideration
16 after having been disposed of by the Style and
17 Drafting Committee, maybe amended or grouped by a vote
18 of at least 22 members of the commission.
19 There's no doubt about the fact that Style and
20 Drafting has not finally disposed of any proposal
21 until we get it. Indeed, they've been meeting on
22 Saturday, on Sunday, on Monday morning. One can
23 scarcely maintain that Style and Drafting has finally
24 disposed of that until we get their work product
25 today.
34
1 And then, in the natural sequence of things, we
2 come to Item No. 4, 5.44, final adoption of a proposal
3 shall require a vote of at least 22 members of the
4 commission.
5 Now, I would suggest to you that the term "final"
6 means the last act, the very last thing you do. In
7 other words, there is nothing yet that remains to be
8 done. And I would submit to you, with all due
9 respect, that we don't have to look to any memoranda,
10 we don't have to look to any transcripts of remarks
11 that have been made or anything else. Final simply
12 means final. We have a rule that helps us understand
13 the direction which we're going.
14 Now, candidly I say this with some trepidation.
15 Knowing that the proposal that meant the most to me
16 only passed by 22 votes. In fact, people were calling
17 me Slim afterwards and I appreciate how very much at
18 risk that proposal may be if it wasn't and ain't
19 already final, it's hanging by a thread. Well, as
20 Commissioner Wetherington had said, You win some and
21 you lose some. And goodness knows, I think I probably
22 lost more than I've won, but so be it. I don't credit
23 you with political motivations in this process.
24 We have some very fine rules that were carefully
25 considered on the front end. Historically we, as
35
1 Americans, have said, We want to be a nation of laws.
2 Let's be a body that abides by the rules. If we want
3 to change the rules, folks, we have a process by which
4 we can change the rules. But let's not engage in any
5 gymnastics that would put our rules asunder.
6 I heard, frankly, some laughter when Commissioner
7 Langley made the comment about the role of the Chair
8 in the vote. But I would just simply direct your
9 attention to the plain language of that rule unless
10 you think that be in jest or be some kind of absurd
11 proposition, Rule 1.7, The Commission Chair shall not
12 be required to vote in ordinary proceedings except on
13 final passage of any proposed revision or part thereof
14 of the Constitution.
15 So folks, I don't think we have an ambiguity in
16 our rules. I don't think we have to look to extrinsic
17 documents to try to figure out what it was that we
18 intended to do. I think the rules are very clear on
19 their face and I think we just ought to follow the
20 rules in the same way that we expect the people and
21 ourselves to abide by the law and the Constitution.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull
24 followed by Commissioner Smith.
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, Members of
36
1 the Commission, I just want to call your attention to
2 the fact that we altered Rule 5 on February 24th
3 following a report of the Rules Committee in which we
4 established that process, and it's found on Page 187
5 of the journal of these proceedings. I'm not going to
6 read all of it, but it talks about what would happen
7 on March 17th and it says, If a proposal is not
8 brought before a revote, the vote taken during the
9 week of February 23rd and 27th is a vote on the
10 matter.
11 All the proposals with 22 or greater votes are
12 recommitted to Style and Drafting for grouping. All
13 other proposals are defeated. B, if a proposal is
14 brought for revote at the request of five members, the
15 proposal is before the commission and available for
16 amendment by simple majority. Proposals on revote
17 must receive 22 votes to be recommitted to Style and
18 Drafting for a grouping, March 23rd, 1998 grouping.
19 Style and Drafting will present groupings for the
20 consideration of the full commission. Sentence:
21 Amendments to proposals and groupings require 22
22 votes. Now that's where we are today.
23 I am well aware of what Rule 5 said before we met
24 and submitted a recommended change which was adopted
25 on motion by this body without objection. That
37
1 constituted a rule change and that's the procedure
2 which we're following.
3 Obviously, as I mentioned before in the colloquy
4 with Commissioner Scott, you can't get the ballot
5 language until you know with finality what the
6 groupings are and we should proceed to do that with a
7 report of the Style and Drafting Committee.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Smith.
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I don't care to speak at
10 this time, Mr. Chair.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I thought you asked to be
12 recognized earlier. All right. Does anybody else
13 want to be heard on this? If not, we'll proceed.
14 Commissioner Langley.
15 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Mr. Chairman, I guess to
16 bring this to a head so that we know where we're
17 going, I would make a parliamentary inquiry as to the
18 Chair's ruling on any proposition that comes up for
19 our first consideration. What is the plan?
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I think I've made it
21 clear that the Chair rules that any matter that has
22 received proposal, that has received 22 votes is a
23 final vote.
24 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Is the Chair's ruling then
25 that the votes of last week were the final votes on
38
1 the proposition?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: On the individual proposals,
3 that is correct.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Even though you didn't
5 vote on 21 of them?
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's counted as a negative
7 vote under the rules.
8 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: No, sir, the rules say
9 that you shall vote.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I rule that that does
11 not affect the final vote.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Okay. Mr. Chairman, let's
13 do it right and, you know, there is nothing wrong with
14 doing it right. I don't think it's going to affect
15 the outcome of anything. But you really ought to do
16 it right and, you know, you can still win. It's not
17 right to, you know, to ignore the rules. That's why
18 they are here. If we didn't have rules that big guy
19 on the street would knock you down every time he came
20 by you.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that an inquiry?
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: The inquiry was, and you
23 have ruled, and I have no choice but to appeal the
24 ruling of the Chair. And I request, if you will, that
25 you allow the Rules Committee to meet and discuss this
39
1 and bring back a recommendation.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't think we need to do
3 that, that would delay us further. And my ruling is
4 based on what I consider to be the rules.
5 Commissioner Wetherington.
6 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: Brief recess?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's okay with me. Let's
8 take a five-minute recess. Keep the room secure.
9 Without objection, we'll recess for five minutes. The
10 President's conference room has been made available.
11 I'm going to ask the committee to assemble in there
12 immediately and let's write out what we've been
13 talking about.
14 All right. Commissioner Scott, could you get the
15 rest of the Rules Committee and go in the conference
16 room? Here's Commissioner Langley, Commissioner
17 Evans-Jones, and Commissioner Thompson. Everybody is
18 there as soon as you come.
19 (Brief recess.)
20 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
21 All commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum
22 call. Quorum call.
23 (Pause.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're still
25 missing some people. Will somebody check in the
40
1 bubble back there and those that haven't signed in,
2 get them to sign in.
3 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
4 All commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum
5 call. Quorum call.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're still
7 missing, I guess, two or three. Commissioner Connor
8 is here. Sign in, please. Thank you. And
9 Commissioner Morsani is here. Will you sign in and
10 that will complete those that were here before, I
11 believe. Yes. All right. Come to order, please.
12 All right. In our recess the Rules Committee met
13 and has a recommendation on this which I think it
14 would give us a broad consensus on how to proceed and
15 that's what we're trying to get and I believe this
16 will do that if I'm not mistaken. Commissioner
17 Barkdull, you're recognized to present the Rules
18 Committee's solution to this problem.
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
20 Members of the Commission, the Rules Committee met and
21 the consensus was that everything will be on the table
22 for 22 votes. We will use the format that's been
23 suggested by the Style and Drafting Committee that's
24 in the packet on your desk. As we take up the
25 suggested Grouping No. 1, it will be available for
41
1 amendment as to substance. And it will also be
2 available as to amendment as to grouping. Either one
3 of which will take 22 votes.
4 It is a thought that we will go through all ten
5 of the suggested groupings as proposed by the Style
6 and Drafting Committee and we anticipate or we know
7 that there will be some amendments offered by the
8 Style and Drafting Committee which will require some
9 amendments more mechanical to what they have seen in
10 going through these proposals. And if there are other
11 amendments to a proposal or amendments to the grouping
12 system, the whole package will ultimately be returned
13 to Style and Drafting at the conclusion of our
14 consideration of the ten suggested groupings
15 individually.
16 They will then come back and report to us what
17 they recommend as to ballot language, title language
18 and any amendments that have been engrossed into a
19 proposal if it was amended in substance. And at that
20 time, we will take the final vote that would send a
21 measure to the ballot.
22 In any of these proceedings a motion to
23 reconsider will be available by a simple majority vote
24 to get the matter back on the table but it will still
25 take 22 votes to take any action in substance to alter
42
1 either the proposal itself or the proposals as
2 grouped. If I have not stated it correctly --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that -- first of all, the
4 Rules Committee unanimously adopted that
5 recommendation, is my understanding. Are there any
6 questions or debate? Commissioner Connor was up
7 first, Sundberg is next.
8 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I have a question of the
9 Rules Chairman if I may. Commissioner Barkdull, in a
10 case of a proposal that is by itself, a single
11 proposal, and in which we may have an interest in
12 amending today, which should come first, the proffer
13 of the amendment or the vote on the group? And if
14 it's voted on, is it -- if it were voted on first, in
15 other words, it's put forth as a single freestanding
16 proposal, would it be subject to amendment after the
17 vote on the grouping?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I think on a motion
19 for reconsideration you could get it back up,
20 Commissioner Connor. But I think for the benefit of
21 the body if somebody wants to offer a substantive
22 amendment to a proposal they should offer it first.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. My
24 understanding of what they said was if you want to
25 substantively amend any proposal, period, regardless,
43
1 on this round, you have to do that and it takes 22
2 votes to adopt your amendment. And the debate
3 limitation on the amendment, is what, two and two?
4 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I haven't made that
5 yet.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Sundberg has a question.
8 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Barkdull, do
9 I understand that after this vote today or tonight,
10 whenever it may take place, with respect to these
11 proposals, it then goes back to Style and Drafting?
12 And have we then accepted Commissioner Scott's
13 proposition that then ballot language will be
14 constructed and then the matters must come back to
15 this group one more time and be voted with the ballot
16 language and the proposals joined and receive 22 votes
17 once again?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
19 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I move that the
21 recommendation of the Rules Committee be approved.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Before we do
23 that, there is a motion made by Commissioner Barkdull.
24 Commissioner Barnett wants to address it.
25 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: No, I don't. I just want
44
1 to make just a point that people will have before
2 them, for the first time, the proposed ballot
3 language. That language is, of course, subject to
4 amendment too by members of the commission but that's
5 on a majority vote.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct.
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Just to make sure that
8 clarification is made.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What we're going to do now is
10 we're going to get going if that's agreeable to
11 everybody. All those in favor of the motion say aye.
12 Opposed.
13 (Verbal vote taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The motion carries. That is
15 how we will operate. Now, Commissioner Barkdull.
16 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'd like to move you,
17 sir, that we limit debate on proposed amendments to
18 substance, to three and three and proposed amendments
19 to ballot position to three and three with the
20 discretion of the Chair to be lenient on matters that
21 may require it.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There is a motion
23 to limit the debate in the form offered by
24 Commissioner Barkdull. All those in favor say aye.
25 Opposed.
45
1 (Verbal vote taken.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That carries as well. Now,
3 it's my understanding there won't be any debate on the
4 issues themselves, the proposals themselves, unless
5 they are amended; is that correct?
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I assume there
7 wouldn't be unless somebody offered an amendment.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That wouldn't do it
9 otherwise. All right. Then can we get started and
10 everybody now, are we all agreed this is the way we'll
11 proceed? Commissioner Langley.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: We just had a
13 conversation. I mean people talk with you and you
14 talk with people and people assume things that aren't
15 necessarily true. I don't think without a vote of the
16 body you can say there's not going to be any debate.
17 I hope there's none. I'm ready to move on.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Move it.
19 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I'm not moving it. I
20 don't think there ought to be a limit on it. I mean,
21 there should be a limit but not just say there is
22 going to be no debate, what you just said.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I'm waiting on
24 somebody.
25 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Nobody has moved it so
46
1 it's okay.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'd like to recognize
4 Commissioner Mills as chairman of the long-enduring
5 Style and Drafting Committee because I tell you one
6 thing, as we start the process, we really owe a lot of
7 thanks to the six members of this committee. I lost
8 count, but I think when I stopped counting, they had
9 put in a total in excess of 150 person hours on
10 working on this package. And I think they are
11 entitled to a great deal of deference.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Deference to
13 Commissioner Mills, you're recognized.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and
15 Chairman Barkdull. Let me take a minute to both thank
16 some people and tell us where we are. The
17 long-suffering members of the Style and Drafting
18 Committee, Commissioner Alfonso, Commissioner Barnett,
19 Commissioner Ford-Coates, Commissioner Lowndes and
20 Commissioner Scott are the owners of those, I think,
21 more than 150 hours. And I wanted to thank all of you
22 for working as diligently as you did.
23 Another thing I want to do at this point on
24 behalf of other commissioners is to thank the staff of
25 this commission. I mean, I've been in the Legislature
47
1 and others have been in other representative -- in
2 other bodies. To revise the Constitution of the state
3 of Florida with 800-some amendments at one time down
4 to ten propositions at this time, the work that those
5 folks have done, and that is Sue Ellen Cohen, Lynn
6 Imhof, Billy Buzzett, Debby Kearney, Debbie Ben-David,
7 Chris Martinez, Ron Morris, I think we owe them a
8 round of applause.
9 (Applause.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right.
11 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And I certainly wanted to
12 also thank the long-suffering Faye Blanton and her
13 Senate staff for suffering with us and helping us make
14 it through this process. They're used to suffering
15 with Commissioner Jennings.
16 Now let's talk about what we've done here. We're
17 about to get passed out -- we're about to pass out,
18 that's for sure.
19 (Laughter.)
20 You're about to get passed out to you -- and
21 we're getting very sensitive about words in Style and
22 Drafting -- the product as it came out this morning.
23 There are ten propositions and those propositions
24 contain anywhere from one to four or five of the
25 former 36 proposals. I don't know what you have. Now
48
1 is the latest of the morning's proposals. What I
2 would like to do, to allow you to get the vision of
3 the forest rather than the trees, is I'll briefly walk
4 through those ten and tell you kind of what are in
5 them. Then as I understand the process, we'll return
6 to proposition number one and we will vote on the
7 grouping after voting on any amendments to that
8 grouping.
9 Grouping No. 1 relates to environmental issues.
10 It includes four of the proposals we have previously
11 had. The only one of the environmental issues that
12 you previously saw under the environmental heading
13 that's not here is the conservation easement. That is
14 in the local government area because it deals with a
15 tax issue.
16 Proposition 2 deals with education. It contains
17 the two issues dealing with education as a paramount
18 duty and the definition of adequacy, those are both in
19 Article IX. Proposition 3 deals with a selection of
20 judges and the funding of the state court system.
21 Those were the options dealing with -- the local
22 election option dealing with merit retention and the
23 Article V funding, those both relate to Article V and
24 are related to courts.
25 I think also we have in there the technical
49
1 amendment on the Judicial Qualifications Commission
2 because that's in Article V as well.
3 Proposition 4 --
4 MR. CHAIRMAN: Do you still have the 3 in there
5 on the military courts?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: The military courts ended up
7 being moved to miscellaneous.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Proposition 4 deals with
10 restructuring the state cabinet and that is the
11 cabinet reform proposal.
12 Proposition 5 deals with reapportionment. There
13 are two proposals in here both dealing with the issue
14 of apportionment. One creates the commission. The
15 second deals with establishing voting districts as
16 single-member districts. We'll probably discuss that
17 more when we get to it.
18 Proposition 6 deals with a series of election
19 issues, that is ballot access, public campaign
20 financing, and election process revisions.
21 Proposition 7 deals with local and municipal property
22 tax exemptions and citizen access to local officials.
23 Proposition 8 deals with firearm purchases.
24 Proposition 9 deals with basic rights and religions
25 freedom. And Proposition 10 we have labeled as
50
1 miscellaneous and technical.
2 I want to mention one thing to you as you are
3 considering the ballot language and the groupings. We
4 have attempted to group these both in logical groups
5 related to the topic and in topics that are
6 understandable publicly, because, ultimately, as we've
7 all said, a public decision and we should do the best
8 we can to convey that.
9 Now the other thing you heard described this
10 morning was the ballot title and ballot summary.
11 There are statutory requirements for that which we
12 have adhered to. The ballot title and summary are to
13 convey the chief purpose of those proposals and I want
14 everybody in the public and the press to realize that
15 you have a 75-word limit. So the reason there is not
16 a lot of flowery language in the ballot summary is
17 there is a legal limit to 75 words. And it's a
18 challenge with which we've been faced and which we're
19 all faced is to do an honest job of representing
20 what's contained in there.
21 And I will tell you that the Style and Drafting
22 Committee approached that task as a ministerial job,
23 to do the best job we could to describe what the
24 proposals did, whether we voted for them or against
25 them. And I think we probably are in pretty good
51
1 shape on those.
2 If there are any general questions at this point,
3 I would be glad to try to address those. Otherwise,
4 we can go ahead and deal with Proposition 1.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're ready to
6 go. And here we are -- I feel like an auctioneer up
7 here. If all of you are ready, we'll vote. We're on
8 No. 1, which has been explained to you, and there are
9 seven amendments on the table, six by Style and
10 Drafting.
11 Would you read Amendment No. 1, please.
12 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
13 Drafting, on Page 2, Line 2, after the word "governor"
14 insert comma.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are recognized and
16 Commissioner Mills moves this on behalf of Style and
17 Drafting.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It is merely editorial,
19 adding a comma. I'd move it.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
21 the amendment signify by saying aye. Opposed.
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. Read
24 Amendment No. 2, please.
25 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Thompson, on Page
52
1 2, Lines 20 through 23, delete, Revenue derived from
2 such licensing fees shall be appropriated to the
3 commission by the Legislature for the purpose of
4 management, protection, and conservation of wild
5 animal life, freshwater aquatic life and marine life.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Thompson, you are recognized for Amendment 2 and you
8 can tell us what the new language says.
9 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: Okay. Mr. Chairman and
10 Members, this is basically the amendment we proposed
11 last week. Commissioner Henderson proposed it and
12 then wanted to withdraw it. And we talked about it.
13 It was subsequently defeated. I now -- I have had it
14 drafted to fit into the group and have chosen to offer
15 it in that way rather than as a reconsideration. But
16 the issue is still the same, and that is whether or
17 not all license fees have to go directly to this new
18 agency or whether or not there is still discretion
19 over the saltwater licenses.
20 The logic for that is, number one, there are
21 federal funds that flow. And, number two, there are
22 lot of things that DEP does that are beyond what I
23 think we've all wanted this new commission to do in
24 that I think the main jurisdiction that we are
25 transferring here basically is the seasons, bag
53
1 limits, size limits, those kinds of things. And there
2 a lot of other things that DEP does in respect to this
3 and with these license fees.
4 If you transfer all of this money to the new
5 agency, number one, I think you're going to give it a
6 lot more money than you ever realized and you're going
7 to create something that you didn't realize that you
8 were creating. And, number two, the Legislature won't
9 have the jurisdiction to direct that flow and that
10 jurisdiction as it needs to. And that's basically
11 what the amendment does.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any questions?
13 Commissioner Barkdull has a question. Commissioner
14 Thompson yields.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Commissioner Thompson, as
16 I understand the memorandum that's been handed to me
17 this morning about the impact of this amendment, if
18 this is adopted there will remain in Marine Fisheries
19 the responsibility for marine research, marine law
20 enforcement, and marine executive functions. And if
21 that's true, what are we really accomplishing if we're
22 going to have two enforcement agencies and we're going
23 to have two agencies doing the same items? Or is it
24 the intention to keep them separate? I thought the
25 intention was to merge them.
54
1 COMISSIONER THOMPSON: Well, I think -- I'm not
2 sure as to whether or not you're mixing apples and
3 oranges. What I'm talking about is a transfer of the
4 jurisdiction to deal with one of the big industries in
5 this state, which is seafood and also sports fishing.
6 Now, what are the DEP programs that go back up the
7 line? One of the things I was thinking about
8 yesterday is what jurisdiction is this new
9 constitutional agency going to have over the locks on
10 the Chattahoochee River because that might impact
11 Apalachicola Bay.
12 I think the Legislature is going to have the
13 jurisdiction to determine that and they need to have
14 the funding sources to do that with also.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, seems to me that
16 we're locking in the Constitution the differential
17 between the two agencies that I thought we were trying
18 to merge.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso.
20 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just an observation. I'd
21 like to speak against the amendment.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. You're recognized.
23 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just deja vu all over
24 again. This hasn't changed since last time. We all
25 thought about it and made a decision. We can now
55
1 think about it again. And one would think it was a
2 logical process last time we made this decision. Do
3 we want to create two enforcement agencies? Is this a
4 unification or is it two separate creations? Let's
5 think that out. We've been working on this a long,
6 long time and it's time to just get on with it. So
7 that's all I have to say on this. Thank you.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I have a question. Wasn't
9 this withdrawn before we voted on that amendment? We
10 voted on it? Okay. You tried to withdraw it and you
11 couldn't; isn't that what happened, Commissioner
12 Henderson?
13 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Mr. Chairman, I proposed
14 the amendment in good faith after working with the
15 various agencies for several hours and unable to reach
16 an agreement with them. At that time I indicated what
17 would be acceptable would be one amendment or the
18 other.
19 Commissioner Thompson proffered one of the
20 amendments which we did support and it did pass. And
21 this one, I did attempt to withdraw it. But
22 Commissioner Thompson gave a very fair argument in
23 support of it and it did not succeed. And so, I'm
24 here in the same posture today that we were a week ago
25 which is I can tell every person in this chamber that
56
1 I have made my best efforts to try to reach some
2 agreement on this issue and have been unable to do so.
3 And so the question before the body is very
4 simply whether or not the saltwater license fees that
5 are paid by saltwater fishermen should go with the new
6 agency or whether it should go to the Legislature to
7 divide that. The only thing that is new in this
8 discussion is that we have had a chance to look at the
9 federal act, the question has been raised, the
10 Wallop-Breaux Act and that is a federal statute that
11 requires the funds or fees paid by fisherman to go to
12 the Game and Fish Department of the respective state.
13 So there are lawyers that are involved in this
14 issue that have raised the question that if this
15 amendment is adopted, then it has the potential impact
16 of causing us to create a diversion under this federal
17 act.
18 This is difficult for me. I can tell you that
19 there has been a lot of discussion around this issue
20 for the last week. But I'm prepared now to stand on
21 the basis. I stand on the proposal that we have
22 before us as a body. It is the best that we can do.
23 And the Legislature next year will be in the process
24 to have to straighten this out and other things. The
25 Marine Patrol, Marine Institute and other things will
57
1 be before them and they'll be able to figure it out,
2 that's what they're elected to do.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody want to
4 speak further on it, Commissioner Sundberg and then
5 Commissioner --
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: I have a question of
7 Commissioner Henderson.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Henderson, do
9 you yield?
10 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Yes, sir.
11 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Henderson,
12 you say that the Legislature will have this issue
13 before them and then can straighten it out. Isn't
14 part of the problem that, in fact, though, revenues
15 are resources that would permit them, if they had the
16 ability to appropriate those revenues, unless
17 precluded by this amendment, that they would have
18 those revenues available to provide for, yes,
19 enforcement of programs in DEP as well as programs in
20 the constitutional commission?
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: That is correct. The
22 provision we have before us says that the revenues
23 would be appropriated to the commission. I think it's
24 a very practical matter. There are issues concerning
25 the Marine Patrol, the Marine Research Institute which
58
1 does other things than this. Both -- the Marine
2 Patrol enforces regulations regarding saltwater
3 fishing. They also enforce regulations concerning
4 manatees that are unaffected by this proposal.
5 The same is true by the Research Institute. It
6 deals with same fisheries' enhancement issues, but it
7 also deals with manatees that are unaffected by this
8 program. So the Legislature is going to be in a
9 posture next year of trying to draw those lines. And
10 I believe, and I certainly am going to be there next
11 year urging upon the Legislature, that the new
12 commission be in a posture of contracting back with
13 DEP to do some of these things through the Research
14 Institute and through the Marine Patrol.
15 But to divide the fees today, I think does run
16 the risk of us creating a diversion under the federal
17 act and that's why attorneys that have been looking at
18 this are very much concerned about the issue.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I'm going to
20 apply the same rule to debate on the amendments that
21 we did on the other, so three and three is going to be
22 the rule. And we weren't keeping time on this one
23 however. Is there anybody else that wants to speak
24 for or against this? Commissioner Mathis.
25 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I have a question and I'm
59
1 not sure who to direct it to.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Direct it and we'll make
3 somebody answer it.
4 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Are there other commissions
5 that receive direct funding from fees that are imposed
6 on the citizens of Florida or would this be a new
7 thing?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I believe the Game Commission
9 does, doesn't it? Commissioner Ford-Coates, can you
10 answer that?
11 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: Currently, the Game
12 and Freshwater Fish Commission is charged with the
13 administration of all hunting and fishing license fees
14 both fresh water and saltwater. A few years ago DEP
15 got out of the business of actually collecting for the
16 salt fresh water fishing license. So today the Game
17 Commission administers those saltwater fishing license
18 fees. I assume they give them back to DEP.
19 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Is that direct
20 administration? The Legislature does not have any
21 part in that?
22 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: The Legislature passes
23 the laws that regulate the fishing, the seasons, et
24 cetera, on salt. The Game Commission provides the
25 regulations on fresh.
60
1 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: Did the Legislature
2 delegate that authority for collection of the fees in
3 administering those fees to the commission?
4 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: The law now says the
5 Game Commission is the one that collects them, through
6 their agents, the tax collectors and their subagents.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is there any
8 further discussion be on the amendment? Commissioner
9 Barnett.
10 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Could I ask a question of
11 Commissioner Henderson?
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: He yields.
13 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Commissioner Henderson,
14 assuming this proposal was adopted --
15 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Assuming the amendment
16 was adopted.
17 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Excuse me, the amendment
18 to the proposal was adopted, would the Legislature
19 still have the option to appropriate all of these
20 funds to the new commission?
21 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Yes.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any further questions?
23 Commissioner Alfonso.
24 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Question of Commissioner
25 Barnett.
61
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, you
2 yield.
3 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Has not the Legislature
4 had this option all these years and what have they
5 done? That's my question.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett.
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: I don't have any idea.
8 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: That's why we've discussed
9 this and that's why we're doing what we're doing. I
10 just think it's, you know, the last hour here and
11 there's pressure to change the way the money flows on
12 this thing and we've been talking about this for a
13 long time and we're now arguing over who's to manage
14 the critters and the resource. The memo that I read
15 from last time was dated September 30th. It wasn't
16 dated last week. It was an FDEP memo.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, this takes
18 22 votes to adopt as an amendment. And if you would
19 unlock the machine, we'll vote. Two people haven't
20 voted. If you haven't voted, vote. Now I voted, is
21 that all right, Commissioner Langley, I voted.
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: See, you're complying with
23 the rules, Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I was going to rule with you
25 that everything I voted on was all right. And
62
1 everything I didn't wasn't and that wouldn't have been
2 fair, would it?
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: You know, you really
4 didn't have to vote on this one.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I did though. I'll vote from
6 now on everything if that's the wish. Lock the
7 machine and announce the vote.
8 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
9 READING CLERK: Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you failed to
12 adopt the amendment. We'll now move to the next
13 amendment, it will be No. 3. Read it, please.
14 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
15 Drafting. On Page 2, Line 21, delete the word
16 "purpose" and insert "purposes."
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is a
18 technical amendment by Style and Drafting.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I move it.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Just added an "S" to purpose.
21 All in favor say aye. Opposed.
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Carries. Now Amendment
24 No. 4, please read it.
25 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
63
1 Drafting on Page 3, Line 17, delete the comma.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is self-explanatory.
3 Somebody from Marion is deleting the comma.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I move it.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's moved by Commissioner
6 Mills. All in favor say aye. Opposed.
7 (Verbal vote taken.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The comma is deleted.
9 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
10 Drafting. On Page 3, Line 20, delete the word
11 "determines" and insert "determine."
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think this is same type of
13 amendment that we just had. It takes an "S" off this
14 time. We lost an "S" and added an "S." We got to be
15 fair. All in favor say aye. Opposed.
16 (Verbal vote taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Next
18 amendment, please.
19 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
20 Drafting. On Page 3, Line 28, delete the words
21 "either of."
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, Commissioner Mills, you
23 might better tell us briefly what that does. We're
24 deleting the words "either/or" on Page 3, Line 28.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I'm getting to the right
64
1 page. Page 3, Mr. Chairman?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Page 3, Line 28, of the
3 proposal.
4 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, it doesn't change the
5 meaning of that surplus language. What you have is
6 "either of" those. And so what you have is on those.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Technical change. All in
8 favor say aye. Opposed.
9 (Verbal vote taken.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Now, the next
11 amendment.
12 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Barnett. On Page
13 1, Line 4, after the word "granting," insert "it the."
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett, do you
15 move this? Commissioner Mills can explain it if you'd
16 like.
17 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, what I'd like to do at
18 this point, that is the last Style and Drafting
19 amendment to the text of the proposal and there are no
20 more --
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There are no more on the
22 desk.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: All right. Now this is
24 relating to the ballot language, Commissioner
25 Barnett's amendment. Now you have the ballot language
65
1 in front of you. On Revision 1, the heading that
2 says, Conservation of natural resources and creation
3 of Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission.
4 That's --
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is --
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I want to make sure
7 everybody has that.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is on Page 1, Line 4; is
9 that correct?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right. Now Commissioner
11 Barnett may want to explain it.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barnett is
13 recognized.
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: This is just a technical
15 amendment, Mr. Chairman. The second clause creates
16 the Game and Fish Conservation Commission and
17 grants -- and then it says, Grants executive powers of
18 the two bodies. We don't say to which entity we grant
19 it. So the amendment says "Granting it the regulatory
20 and executive powers" to make it clear what the new
21 commission gets, those powers.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
23 understand the amendment? Commissioner Scott, you
24 have a question?
25 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Just a question. This
66
1 replaces basically what was in Revision 1. Is that
2 the -- I just don't want us to -- is that the only
3 change made in it? I thought there might be --
4 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: We made substantial
5 changes to the ballot language which is in front of
6 you and this is an amendment to that change that we
7 did this morning. We just left out a designation of
8 who got these powers.
9 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Yes.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman?
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, Commissioner Mills.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: What we decided was you did
13 not have -- what's printed in front of you that
14 contains the entire text was not the final work
15 product of Style and Drafting. The final work product
16 of Style and Drafting with, Commissioner Scott, this
17 morning, et cetera, was this, on the ballot language.
18 And the only thing we're changing is the ballot
19 language.
20 And this ballot language, Commissioner Scott, as
21 you recall, there was concern on this issue to make
22 sure that we were clear that legislative authority had
23 been removed because that was an issue in a case and
24 so it does that.
25 So, this is the ballot language as it came out of
67
1 Style and Drafting and Commissioner Barnett has
2 recognized the insertion of the two words would help
3 clarify it. Now, we had said before that since this
4 is the proposal of Style and Drafting, when you vote
5 on this grouping, I take it at this point you get this
6 language. But you haven't voted on final passage.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So this would be
8 an amendment requiring a simple majority; is that
9 correct?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And then we come back and
12 vote on it again; is that correct, Commissioner
13 Barkdull?
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is everybody
16 ready to vote on this amendment to the ballot language
17 offered as No. 7, or whatever it is, one Page 1, Line
18 4, after the word "granting," insert "it the." All in
19 favor say aye. Opposed.
20 (Verbal vote taken.)
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. No further
22 amendments on the table. Commissioner Mills.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If I understand the posture
24 we're in, it would now be appropriate to move a vote
25 on the grouping which would require 22 votes?
68
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct unless there
2 are other amendments.
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are there other amendments?
5 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Let me make sure I got this
7 right. This is a motion on the grouping and the
8 ballot language but not the final vote; is that
9 correct?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct. This is a
11 vote on the grouping and the ballot language, not a
12 final vote on the -- any of the proposals.
13 Commissioner Barnett.
14 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Just a question. Not that
15 I think this will happen, but just -- there was -- but
16 anything could happen. If someone wanted to add, say
17 there's another proposed grouping that breaks apart or
18 a provision someone wants to add to this -- can it,
19 even though we're voting on the grouping, is it still
20 available for that amendment?
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: That's my understanding.
22 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: You don't now need to go
23 to another proposed grouping and pull that out because
24 that's not before us.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She wants to know if you want
69
1 to put something else in this group, do you need to do
2 it now. Is that what you're saying?
3 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: Right. Or wait until you
4 come up to that -- can you amend this even though we
5 voted on it as a grouping?
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: By 22 votes.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, I think the
9 response to the question would be that if later on in
10 the proceedings, because of what may happen to a
11 subsequent group, she thinks that there should be an
12 alteration in this group, the proper procedure would
13 be a motion to reconsider the vote by which we adopted
14 this grouping which would take a simple majority to
15 pass and then would get this grouping back on the
16 table again and it would be subject to amendment by 22
17 votes.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that understood? All
19 right. Now we're going to be ready to vote then on
20 Amendment No. 1, the grouping and the ballot language
21 that is before you. Revision 1 is the way it will be
22 titled. Unlock the machine and let's vote. Everybody
23 hasn't voted. Now we have.
24 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
70
1 the vote.
2 READING CLERK: Thirty-two yeas, three nays,
3 Mr. Chairman.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you've grouped
5 these together and we'll now move to No. 2, Revision
6 No. 2. Commissioner Henderson.
7 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Just since the first one
8 out of the box is the guinea pig and I'm slow, when do
9 we get to the issue of final passage?
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: After we come back, after we
11 go through this exercise of dealing with --
12 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: It may be today, it may
13 be next week?
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, it's going to be today if
15 it's tonight. We're going to try to finish this up
16 today. I say that with all degree of expectations.
17 All right. We now go to Revision No. 2. Would
18 you explain -- how are we going to do this? Are we
19 going to read these? Read the title to Provision
20 No. 2.
21 READING CLERK: Provision 2, relating to public
22 education of children.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is the
24 education grouping. Commissioner Mills.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I don't think
71
1 there are any Style and Drafting amendments on the
2 desk. There is one, okay.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: There is an Amendment No. 1.
4 Would you read the amendment, please. By Style and
5 Drafting, moved by Commissioner Mills.
6 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
7 Drafting, on Page 1, Line 15, delete the word "its."
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
9 Mills.
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: It deletes the word "its."
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. All in favor say aye.
12 Opposed.
13 (Verbal vote taken.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. Amendment
15 No. 2.
16 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Brochin on Page
17 1, Line 3, delete "adequate" and insert "adequate."
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Wait a minute. Oh, it's
19 spelling. I see. We're going to spell it right, is
20 that right, Commissioner Brochin? Okay. Does
21 everybody understand, this is a correction to make it
22 spelled correctly, "adequate." All those in favor say
23 aye. Opposed.
24 (Verbal vote taken.)
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It does carry. No. 3 is
72
1 next.
2 READING CLERK: By Commission Brochin on Page 1,
3 Lines 16 through 26, delete those lines and insert,
4 State of Florida, it is therefore a paramount duty of
5 the state to make adequate provision for the education
6 of all children residing within its borders. Adequate
7 provision shall be made by law for a uniform,
8 efficient, safe, secure, and high quality system of
9 free public schools that allow students to obtain a
10 high-quality education and for the establishment,
11 maintenance, and operation of institutions of higher
12 learning and other public education programs that the
13 needs of people may require.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
15 Brochin, you're recognized on your amendment and this
16 is an amendment to the second one in the revision; is
17 that right?
18 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: Well, it's actually an
19 amendment to both so we can bring them together,
20 that's the whole purpose, so they read well together.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So explain your
22 amendment.
23 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: This does not
24 substantively change either Proposal 181 and it does
25 not substantively change Proposal 157. What it does
73
1 is it makes it so the two read together clearly.
2 And the change is instead of making adequate
3 education, the first part makes clear that it's
4 adequate provision for the education of all children.
5 And then the only change in the second part dealing
6 with adequate provision is we changed the word from
7 "achieve" a high-quality education to the word
8 "obtain" a high-quality education. So substantively,
9 there's no difference.
10 This is the intent to marry the two provisions
11 together.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, does that mean we'll
13 only have one on the ballot?
14 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: I don't know. You have
15 two proposals, 157 and 181. They're read together,
16 they're the same article, they're the same section.
17 It would make sense to present them as one proposal.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: At the moment they're two
19 separate proposals?
20 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: Right. That's only
21 because procedurally that's how they came to us. But
22 they are meant to be read together and they're in the
23 same section.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Did you discuss with Style
25 and Drafting making one proposal out of these?
74
1 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: I did not discuss it with
2 Style and Drafting.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Then we don't have
4 that recommendation before us. Does everybody
5 understand his amendment? Question, Commissioner
6 Connor.
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I had always
8 been under the impression that we were dealing with
9 two separate proposals. But in my handout of
10 materials, I only have one. Am I missing something
11 here?
12 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: There are two proposals.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: They have been merged then?
14 Now, here's my question then. So then is Style and
15 Drafting proposing as a grouping that this be one,
16 just one stand-alone proposal rather than --
17 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: I think what Style and
18 Drafting did was take the two proposals, which they
19 were always separate --
20 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: And merged them?
21 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: Well, I don't know if merge
22 them is the right word. But those two proposals have
23 been recommended as one group.
24 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, here's my question,
25 Mr. Chairman, if I may.
75
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Your question was the same as
2 mine.
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It strikes me that this
4 body -- it strikes me that what Style and Drafting has
5 done, unilaterally, I believe, is to group these
6 proposals without an affirmative vote by this body.
7 These always had been, as I understood it, two
8 separate freestanding proposals. And now they've
9 merged them into one which I think ought to require a
10 vote of this body.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Just a moment.
12 If what I've got before me, that appears to be the
13 case, Commissioner Brochin, that's why I asked you the
14 question. We started out with two and on my sheet
15 where we're working from, on the special order, it had
16 both of them on there. No. 157 by Commissioner Mills
17 and Proposal 181 by you. And one was adopted 28 to 2
18 and the other one 28 to 1.
19 But what you're telling us, I think, and I think
20 I asked the same question Commissioner Connor did, we
21 only have one in our packet which you now tell me were
22 merged. Commissioner Barnett for Style and Drafting.
23 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: To explain, I think there
24 is a little misunderstanding. What you have in your
25 package is the recommendation from Style and Drafting
76
1 as to proposed groupings. This particular one on
2 education had two separate proposals initially that we
3 proposed grouping into one. Because they both amend
4 the same article and section of the Constitution, the
5 language that's before you has simply redone, retyped
6 those to merge them into that one section to show how
7 they would be in the Constitution if passed. That's
8 our recommendation. Now it's my understanding
9 Commissioner Brochin wants to change the language of
10 that recommendation.
11 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, then as a point of
12 order if I may, Mr. Chairman. Since this body has not
13 yet voted to group them, it seems to me it would be
14 out of order to take up the proposed amendment.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think the amendment is
16 proper, but you put your finger -- just a moment. You
17 put your finger on this. If you're against what
18 they've done, then you vote no on this amendment. You
19 vote no on this amendment if you're against what the
20 Style and Drafting has done, that's the way I
21 understand it because it is appropriate for them to
22 recommend that two proposals would combine, they are
23 in the same grouping anyway, be grouped. Then you
24 would vote against this amendment. If you don't like
25 what they did, then you would vote against the
77
1 grouping.
2 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Right. But if I understand
3 it, Commissioner Brochin is asking us to vote on
4 language which would amend the group which has not yet
5 been adopted. Am I wrong on that?
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, he's moving to amend
7 what's before us which is the report of the Style and
8 Drafting which does what I just said. And he's moving
9 to amend their report; is that right, Commissioner
10 Barnett? Their recommendation, excuse me.
11 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: The recommendation of
12 Style and Drafting is to group these two proposals and
13 what's before you is simply a scrivener's merging of
14 the two proposals because they affected the same
15 article and section of the Constitution. What
16 Commissioner Brochin wants to do is actually amend the
17 substantive language. Style and Drafting did not
18 recommend amendments to the substantive language in
19 the proposals, simply the merger of the two.
20 You may well like his language better and still
21 be opposed to grouping both of these proposals.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think -- my ruling is, if
23 you don't like grouping these or you don't like one of
24 them in this case, you vote no on the final vote. But
25 at the moment, he's moved to amend the substantive
78
1 language. And tell us what you've substantively
2 changed.
3 COMMISIONER BROCHIN: I haven't substantively
4 changed anything. All I've done is -- and I haven't
5 tried to merge the two together. I'm just saying as a
6 group, I'm proposing that it just be rewritten to
7 provide, one, that instead of providing for adequate
8 education, it made clear that it is making adequate
9 provision for the education which makes sense because
10 then the next one, which is Proposal 157, is what
11 talks about adequate provision which is a separate
12 proposal.
13 And the only thing I changed in that proposal was
14 changed the word to "obtain" a high-quality education
15 as compared to the word "achieved." That's the only
16 difference I made substantively. And intent-wise,
17 there is absolutely no difference and there's no
18 attempt to merge these two together now. It's simply
19 to change what Style and Drafting has come forward
20 with.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
22 understand that the amendment would change the Style
23 and Drafting recommendation to change the language he
24 just outlined which is a change according to his
25 understanding and intent not to the substance of
79
1 either amendment but to the proposal offered by Style
2 and Drafting? Somebody from Style and Drafting want
3 to address this to give us your view on this?
4 Commissioner Mills.
5 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I take
6 Commissioner Brochin's statement at face value. I
7 don't think it's -- changes the substance. But we in
8 Style and Drafting didn't even change the order of the
9 words. So I think that --
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Recommend a vote for or
11 against? You ought to tell us. We need to know how
12 to do it.
13 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, as a matter of
14 substance, I think he has clarified the language and I
15 would intend to vote for it.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So you, as
17 chairman of Style and Drafting, at least recommend the
18 vote for this amendment. Anybody else on Style and
19 Drafting want to address it? If not, all in favor of
20 the amendment say aye. Opposed.
21 (Verbal vote taken.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted.
23 Are there further amendments on the table?
24 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
80
1 Connor.
2 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, then if we
3 want to -- if I understand procedurally, if we want to
4 segment these two proposals and vote on them
5 individually by their merits, as I understand it, we
6 vote no on the amended recommendation that we have
7 before us; is that correct?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that's right.
9 Commissioner Langley. Commissioner Langley is
10 recognized.
11 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: All the language then,
12 defining adequate is no longer with us? Well his
13 amendment strikes everything from 16 to 26 which is
14 everything in there and reinserts this which says
15 nothing about adequate. I don't care because I don't
16 like defining adequate anyway in the Constitution.
17 But for the people here, the guts of the second
18 amendment was what does adequate mean. But it is not
19 there now. That's fine with me. I just think people
20 ought to know that we're not doing that anymore.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's got adequate in the one
22 I've got.
23 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: No, sir. It says,
24 Adequate provision shall be made. But the other
25 proposal says, Adequate provision means providing an
81
1 efficient, safe, secure, high-quality, et cetera, it
2 says what adequate is. I don't think we ought to do
3 that and I agree. I just didn't know if Mr. Brochin
4 knew that he was doing that.
5 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: No, I knew what I was
6 doing and I don't think it changes it and I still
7 don't because the language that was in there before
8 simply said as adequate provision is used in the
9 previous sentence, this is what it means.
10 So in instead, we just put the words which were
11 defining adequate provision in the sentence that
12 requires law to be made by adequate provision. So now
13 it reads, Adequate provision shall be made by law for
14 uniform, and adds the definitional terms of efficient,
15 safe, secure and high-quality which is what the
16 explanation was in the second sentence. I just think
17 it's better writing. I don't think it changes it at
18 all.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody got any
20 further questions or comments? If not, Commissioner
21 Corr.
22 COMMISSIONER CORR: Mr. Chairman, a further
23 comment to Commissioner Langley's observation. I want
24 it to be clear, I believe that this is the same in
25 substance to the previous proposal amended. What we
82
1 have in here is a definition of adequate provision.
2 Whereas before it said, Adequate provision shall be
3 made by law for a uniform system of free public
4 schools.
5 Now what we have is, Adequate provision shall be
6 made by law for uniform, efficient, safe, secure and
7 high-quality system of free public schools that allows
8 students to obtain a high-quality education. This is
9 still the biggest invitation to a lawsuit that we have
10 maybe besides from the first proposal we just passed
11 about natural resources. But this is the lawsuit
12 proposal for public education still even amended.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I take it you're speaking
14 against the amendment and against the proposal.
15 COMMISSIONER CORR: Just an observation.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Is that correct?
17 COMMISSIONER CORR: I guess so.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're on the
19 amendment at this point. We're not voting on the
20 proposal yet.
21 (Off-the-record comment.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Beg your pardon? Oh, we
23 voted on the amendment, excuse me. That was on the
24 proposal. Thank you.
25 All right. Any further debate on the proposal
83
1 itself now? It wouldn't be the proposal, excuse me,
2 it will be the grouping of those two into this form,
3 that's what we're voting on. All right. Unlock the
4 machine and we'll all vote.
5 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Lock the machine
7 and announce the vote.
8 READING CLERK: Twenty-eight yeas, seven nays,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have
11 accepted the grouping of the Style and Drafting
12 Committee.
13 We'll now move to Revision 3, funding of state
14 courts and judicial reform. Are there amendments on
15 the table?
16 READING CLERK: Amendments on the desk, Mr.
17 Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read Amendment No. 1.
19 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
20 Drafting, on Page 2, Lines 9 through 10, and Lines 17
21 through 18, delete the words, And Article V, Section
22 11, as amended.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
24 Mills, you're recognized to explain the amendment by
25 Style and Drafting.
84
1 COMMISSIONER MILLS: This simply deletes -- this
2 is an unneeded reference which you have at Subsection
3 A. In other words, it says, The election of circuit
4 judges shall be preserved notwithstanding the
5 provisions of Subsection A as amended, and you delete
6 Article V, Section 11.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So you're deleting, And
8 Article V, Section 11, on that page; is that right?
9 Is that correct?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does everybody understand the
12 amendment? It deletes what is termed by Style and
13 Drafting to be an unnecessary reference. All those in
14 favor say aye. Opposed.
15 (Verbal vote taken.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted.
17 Read the next amendment.
18 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Scott, on Page 3,
19 Line 4, delete the word "Secretary of State" and
20 insert "custodian of state records."
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
22 Scott, move this amendment? Do you want to speak to
23 it? Everybody understand it? It just changes the
24 word "Secretary of State" to "custodian of records."
25 All right. All those in favor of the amendment
85
1 say aye. Opposed.
2 (Verbal vote taken.)
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is adopted. Next
4 amendment.
5 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No more amendments on the
7 desk. All right. Now we're on the groupings of
8 Revision 3 which is the grouping of Proposal No. 66
9 which is providing the local option merit selection
10 and retention and the Article V funding provision
11 which we spent a lot of time on which is No. 3155.
12 Commissioner Lowndes is recognized.
13 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I have an amendment which
14 I have prepared, but it's not on the desk, to the
15 ballot language because of some observations from some
16 nonlegal people about its clarity. Can I offer that
17 amendment?
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You may. And it needs to be
19 put on the table. We need a copy.
20 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I have prepared it.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I wonder if it would be
23 appropriate to temporarily pass this.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, let's -- what I'd like to
25 do is to finish this grouping.
86
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I'd like to finish it
2 too.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's finish it then we're
4 going to go to lunch and take 30 minutes to eat lunch.
5 It's right back here. We're going to finish this one
6 with your permission of course.
7 Commissioner Lowndes, you can go ahead and
8 explain your amendment and then I'll have -- well, is
9 it ready to be read? She can't read it, you didn't do
10 a good job. Do you want to come up here and tell her
11 how to read it? We're going to cut you out of lunch
12 if you don't hurry up, Commissioner Lowndes.
13 SECRETARY BLANTON: Commissioner Lowndes moved
14 the following amendment to summary, on Page 1, Line 3,
15 add after "selection," the words "selection, by
16 appointment" and add after the word "retention by vote
17 to "retain or not."
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, Commissioner Lowndes to
19 explain the amendment. This is for the ballot
20 language, right?
21 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: As to ballot language.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's in one of these.
23 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Yes, sir. It was
24 suggested to me by Mr. Morsani, Commissioner Morsani,
25 this morning that the people that worked in his shop
87
1 wouldn't know what we were talking about if we said
2 merit selection and retention. And after he said
3 that, it occurred to me that we really needed to be
4 more clear what we're talking about. So this says,
5 Merit selection by appointment. And retention by a
6 vote to retain or not.
7 And then the average person could understand what
8 they're voting for and that's the reason for the
9 amendment. And I wanted to thank Commissioner Morsani
10 for pointing that out.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So we have clarifying
12 ballot language. Now, Commissioner Sundberg.
13 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: For a question,
14 Commissioner Lowndes.
15 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Yes, sir.
16 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Does this really clarify
17 merit selection by appointment by whom under one
18 process?
19 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Well, I think it clarifies
20 to this extent, I think the average voter is going to
21 be dealing with the proposition of whether I elect it
22 or whether somebody appoints them. And I think it at
23 least shows him that's the choice. I don't think he
24 can figure out that's the choice if you simply say
25 merit selection. It may be merit selection by the
88
1 voter.
2 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Well, the problem is, it
3 seems to me, that this -- that this will permit a
4 characterization which might be detrimental to the
5 passage of this -- I'm just made uneasy by it. It
6 doesn't -- I'm not sure it fully explains. And I know
7 a ballot language cannot fully explain it. I'm not
8 sure this is an improvement. It seems to me it may
9 work against the proposition. I don't have anything
10 else to offer.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: As I understand it, it's
12 offered by Commissioner Lowndes with the intent to
13 clarify it for the average person.
14 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: That's right.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The above average too because
16 Commissioner Morsani brought it to your attention.
17 Didn't mean to slight you, Commissioner Morsani.
18 All right. Is there any further discussion on
19 the amendment to the ballot language that's been
20 offered by amendment by Commissioner Lowndes? If not,
21 all in favor of the amendment say aye. Opposed.
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now, the next
24 proposal there, I think doesn't require a vote because
25 there are no amendments on the table, it's whether or
89
1 not -- the only vote it requires is whether or not you
2 want to leave it single; is that right? All right.
3 Then on the -- excuse me.
4 (Off-the-record comment.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Oh, excuse me. We didn't
6 take the vote on 3 so we better do that. Now that's
7 grouping those two proposals that we've been
8 discussing and the ballot language as amended. So
9 unlock the machine and we'll vote on Revision No. 3
10 which is the judicial revision -- grouping. All
11 right. Lock the machine and announce the vote.
12 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
13 READING CLERK: Thirty yeas, 5 nays,
14 Mr. Chairman.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. By your vote,
16 you've confirmed that as a grouping. Now on Revision
17 No. 4, the only thing we have to do there is vote on
18 whether or not we're going to leave it single because
19 there is nothing to group with it.
20 All right. We'll go to lunch. She just told me
21 somebody is trying to do a 14-page amendment to this
22 and we'll want to do that on a full stomach. So with
23 your permission, somebody move for a recess to go eat
24 lunch and we'll be back at 1:00.
25 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: 1:00.
90
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's try to get started as
2 promptly as we can at 1:00.
3 (Lunch recess at 12:30 p.m.)
4 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
5 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
6 commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum call.
7 Quorum call.
8 (Quorum taken and recorded electronically.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have three that are here
10 that are not signed in. Will somebody check the back
11 back there?
12 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
13 All commissioners indicate your presence.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If everybody will
15 be seated, we'll get started. Am I right, when we
16 left we were fixing to take up Revision 4?
17 (Off-the-record discussion.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If everybody will
19 take their seat we'll get underway. We are on
20 Revision No. 4.
21 (Gavel.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are on Revision No. 4. We
23 are ready to go. Commissioner Mills for Style and
24 Drafting. There are three amendments on the table.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, the -- this
91
1 again, is a restructure of the Cabinet. The long
2 amendment that you were talking about, I think, was
3 prepared by staff and it is a conforming amendment
4 because this proposal takes the term Secretary of
5 State out of the Constitution and changes Treasurer
6 and Comptroller to Chief Financial Officer. So what
7 this amendment does is conforms the use of that
8 language elsewhere in the Constitution. So, if you
9 passed the substance of this restructuring, then those
10 words would be changed elsewhere in the Constitution.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Amendment No. 1
12 is the conforming amendment being offered by
13 Commissioner Mills. And it is a long, thick one, but
14 I'll ask her to read the title. But what it does,
15 basically, as I understand it, Commissioner Mills, is
16 that it just conforms this to make the language
17 technically correct for what we have done in the
18 proposal; is that right?
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. My
20 understanding, it was given to me by staff and Style
21 and Drafting, as we didn't have it at the time that we
22 were meeting this morning, all it does is change
23 Secretary of State to Custodian of Records and
24 wherever there's Treasurer to Chief Financial Officer.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So what you did is
92
1 made it consistent with what's proposed, is that
2 correct, it is a technical change?
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All in favor, say aye.
5 Opposed?
6 (Verbal vote taken.)
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries, it is amended.
8 If we have a problem, somebody tell me. What is it?
9 (Off-the-record discussion.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We are going to
11 un-pass that for a minute. Do I need to or can I just
12 treat it as an amendment to the amendment? All right.
13 I would like to ask you to reconsider the vote we just
14 took. All in favor, say aye. All opposed, like sign.
15 (Verbal vote taken.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, we need to offer an
17 amendment to the amendment which is on the table. And
18 I'll ask them to read first the amendment and then the
19 amendment to the amendment. You may proceed.
20 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
21 Drafting, delete everything and insert, Article II,
22 Section HH; Article III, Sections 8B, 16B and F, 19F;
23 Article IV, Sections 3B, 4, 7A, and 8; Article VIII,
24 Section 1I; Article IX, Section 2; Article XI,
25 Sections 2C, 3, 4, 5A, and 6E; and Article 12, Section
93
1 9C, Florida Constitution, and create Section 22,
2 Article 12, Florida Constitution, providing for
3 membership of the Florida Cabinet.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, this is the
5 one that makes the staff recommended changes to make
6 the language conform with the titles with what we have
7 passed. The amendment to that is the next amendment.
8 It is an amendment to that amendment, which has also
9 been in an area discovered by the staff. Would you
10 read the amendment to the amendment?
11 READING CLERK: Amendment to the amendment by the
12 Committee on Style and Drafting, on Page 9, Line 1,
13 after "of," insert "free."
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
15 understand that, it is another technical amendment to
16 the technical amendment. All in favor of the
17 amendment to the amendment, say aye. Opposed?
18 (Verbal vote taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now, we'll vote
20 on the amendment as amended. All in favor, say aye.
21 All opposed?
22 (Verbal vote taken.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now, are there
24 other amendments on the table? There are no further
25 amendments on the table? All right. We are on the
94
1 grouping, which isn't a grouping, I guess the ballot
2 language. Commissioner Mills.
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: My understanding is that you
4 would be voting on the ballot language at this point
5 and it wouldn't be final passage. It would not be
6 final passage, because we aren't doing final passage
7 on any of them.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. That's correct.
9 So, the ballot language, we just voted on it?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: We haven't voted on it.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Would you move the
12 ballot language?
13 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I move the ballot language
14 and this group.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is on your white packet,
16 Revision 4. And this is the ballot language for the
17 Cabinet proposal. Do you want to briefly explain it,
18 Commissioner Mills?
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If you have it in front of
20 you, the title is, Restructuring the State Cabinet.
21 What we attempted to do in here is indicate that it
22 was restructuring the elected Cabinet, identifying
23 which offices would be part of the elected Cabinet and
24 which part would be appointed. And you have the
25 language in front of you.
95
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in --
2 everybody understand that? We are going to have to
3 vote on this one, I guess. We can't do this one by
4 voice vote, can we? Twenty-two votes. All right. If
5 everybody is ready to vote on the ballot language,
6 we'll unlock the machine and let's vote.
7 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's vote on the ballot
9 language. Come on, everybody hasn't voted, let's
10 vote. Everybody hasn't voted and right now you need
11 another vote to adopt this. Somebody changed their
12 vote. It was 22. Who hasn't voted? It's 21 to 13 at
13 the moment. Lock the machine quick, Commissioner
14 Langley may change his vote.
15 READING CLERK: Twenty-two yeas, 12 nays,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We adopted the ballot
18 language, and that's what we just adopted. When we
19 come back, this is not a grouping -- oh, there is the
20 other vote that wasn't here. This is not a grouping.
21 Commissioner Scott, we just adopted the ballot
22 language, we had already adopted the amendments, and
23 we now have moved to Revision No. 5. Revision No. 5,
24 would you read it please?
25 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
96
1 Drafting, on Page 2, Lines 19 through 20; on Page 3,
2 Lines 2, 5, 12, 13, 15, and 30; on Page 4, Lines 1,
3 9-10, 14-15 and 19; and Page 5, Line 13, delete the
4 word Secretary of State and insert Custodian of State
5 Records.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Which one are you on? Just a
7 minute.
8 (Off-the-record discussion.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read the proposal.
10 READING CLERK: Revision 5 creates
11 reapportionment and redistricting commission to
12 establish voting districts, mandate single-member
13 legislative districts.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, from Style
15 and Drafting, Commissioner Lowndes.
16 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: This is not from Style and
17 Drafting, Mr. Chairman. I would like to move that we
18 separate the two proposals that are grouped. The two
19 proposals that are grouped are the appointed
20 commission proposal which deals with single-member
21 districts and the second proposal, 155, which deals
22 with single-member districts.
23 One of the proposals says that the commission
24 appoints the districts and the other proposal says the
25 Legislature appoints the districts, and these two
97
1 proposals, as grouped, are in conflict with one
2 another. And I suggest that we separate them so that
3 we can vote on them separately rather than voting on
4 something which is in conflict. So I would like to
5 move that we separate the two proposals.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There's a motion,
7 and it takes 22 votes. Is there a motion -- there is
8 a motion to separate these two proposals.
9 Commissioner Connor.
10 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Point of clarification,
11 Mr. Chairman. You have indicated that, to accomplish
12 that purpose it would take 22 votes. Am I correct
13 that if the vote on the grouping failed, that they
14 would be segmented? In other words, it wouldn't
15 require 22 votes in order to segment the proposals and
16 your motion requires an affirmative 22 votes?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, the answer to that is
18 that if we don't separate it and you vote on them and
19 they don't get 22 votes as on the drafting, I mean, on
20 this, they would travel as separate items anyway.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So, either way, you can do it
23 either way you want to. You can either vote not to
24 group them and not get 22 votes and they would both go
25 forward as single proposals, the same way the motion
98
1 that was just made required, you are right on that,
2 and your inquiry is answered that way.
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So, we can do it however you
5 like, we can separate them by not giving it 22 votes,
6 which isn't an indication of how you are going to vote
7 on the final on either one of them, or you can do this
8 motion. Commissioner Scott, I think at lunch you
9 thought the motion might be more appropriate.
10 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well, Mr. Chairman, the
11 motion, if I might suggest, would be that these
12 proposals be separated and then they are readmitted to
13 Style and Drafting basically -- I mean, that's what we
14 are doing, and to be brought as separate proposals.
15 And that's basically -- so, it's not doing anything,
16 this can't be a final vote right now anyway on the
17 issue.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, my point was, you can
19 do it either way you want to, you can do it in a
20 motion or you can just vote not to group them, and
21 that would result in the same thing.
22 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Going to Style and Drafting?
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, as separate items. So,
24 we can go ahead and vote on the motion, and then it'll
25 have the same thing, and then we won't have to vote on
99
1 anything but the ballot language, which we can defer.
2 Is that right? Okay.
3 Does everybody understand? We are going to vote
4 on the motion to separate. If this motion is adopted,
5 neither one of these will be considered further until
6 they come back from Style and Drafting; is that clear?
7 They will go to Style and Drafting as separate
8 proposals and you will redraft the ballot language.
9 Do a voice vote. All in favor, say aye. Opposed?
10 (Verbal vote taken.)
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries with 22 votes,
12 therefore we'll now move on to Revision No. 6. First
13 of all, I don't guess we need to read these, what we
14 need is to have you as Chairman of Style and Drafting
15 tell us what each one of these is and what the
16 grouping is. Commissioner Mills, Style and Drafting.
17 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this group
18 deals with election reform, what we have generally
19 referred to as ballot access, public campaign
20 financing and other revisions to the election process.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is grouping
22 proposals number -- Committee Substitute for Proposal
23 16 by the Committee on Ethics and Election; Proposal
24 32 by Commissioner Ford-Coats; Commissioners' 79 by
25 Committee on Ethics and Elections; Proposal 148 by
100
1 Commissioner Ford-Coates; Proposal 149 by Commissioner
2 Scott; Proposal 158 by Commissioner Marshall. That is
3 the grouping. There are amendments on the table.
4 READING CLERK: On the desk, Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read the first amendment.
6 READING CLERK: Revision 6, related to increase
7 ballot access by election reforms, by Style and
8 Drafting, on Page 2, Line 10, delete the comma.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Which amendment is
10 this to, which proposal is it addressed to,
11 Commissioner Mills?
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, they have been
13 drafted together, so in your major packet --
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So, this is on Line 2
15 in your major packet, Page 2, Line 10, is the first
16 amendment and it is to delete the comma; is that
17 right?
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Correct.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. If everybody will
20 turn in their packet to Revision 6, this first
21 amendment is on Page 2, Line 10, delete the comma.
22 All in favor, say aye.
23 (Verbal vote taken.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Then the next one is on
25 Revision 6, as it relates -- read it please.
101
1 READING CLERK: By the Committee on Style and
2 Drafting, on Page 2, Line 11, delete the comma.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This is on Page 2, Line 11,
4 delete the comma. All in favor, say aye.
5 (Verbal vote taken.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The comma is deleted. Now,
7 any further amendments on the table?
8 READING CLERK: On the desk, Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No further amendments on the
10 table. Oh, there are, okay. Read the next amendment.
11 READING CLERK: By Committee on Style and
12 Drafting, on Page 3, Line 6, delete the word elections
13 and insert election.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Somebody want to
15 explain that?
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I would ask
17 Commissioner Ford-Coates to --
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Ford-Coates.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: The question is, were you
20 deleting the "s" in elections? You don't want to do
21 that? So, Style and Drafting didn't pass that.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So, it's withdrawn.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is withdrawn. Is there
25 another amendment?
102
1 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Barnett, on Page
2 1, Line 2, delete, can be no, and insert, cannot be.
3 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: That's on the ballot
4 language.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The ballot language, okay,
6 turn to the ballot language.
7 COMMISSIONER BARNETT: They just handed this out.
8 Mr. Chairman, you will see the ballot language for
9 Revision 6 has 76 words, this is an effort to find a
10 word. And the language says, can be no, and we have
11 made that, cannot be, so we have taken three words and
12 made it two, and we are now down to 75 words.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
14 understand the amendment by Commissioner Barnett? All
15 in favor, say aye.
16 (Verbal vote taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted.
18 And that is the ballot language. Now, are there any
19 further amendments?
20 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. We are ready to go now
22 on grouping as amended. All right. To go as a group
23 on the ballot, that's where we are at the moment.
24 Commissioner Langley.
25 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I would like to make a
103
1 Commissioner Lowndes' motion that Propositions 32, 79,
2 149 be removed from this proposal, we are trying to
3 get 32 as voting age. I'm trying to get the
4 noncontroversial things out of them.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What you think is
6 noncontroversial somebody may not think is. It's your
7 opinion.
8 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I think that everybody
9 believes that persons 18 years of age can vote in
10 Florida.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: They do.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Okay, that is the law.
13 The second one, I believe, is ballot access. I don't
14 think that it received but two or three negative
15 votes.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It didn't receive any, it
17 passed 33 to nothing.
18 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: All right. Well, pardon
19 my recollection. And the other is whether or not the
20 prospective Governor and Cabinet has to name a
21 Lieutenant Governor, I don't think that there's a
22 whole lot of controversy about that. I would like
23 those removed because those are good things that ought
24 to be in there.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You don't need to convince
104
1 anybody.
2 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Does that sound familiar?
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You know, you might lose a
4 vote and it'll be 32 to 1 or something. It was 33 to
5 nothing or 31 to nothing. You are moving --
6 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Those may go down with an
7 otherwise heavily burdened ship.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Are you moving to make
9 them --
10 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: A separate proposal. Now,
11 bear in mind, we have got 11 or 12, and this may be
12 No. 13 and we may end up with 15 and then we may go
13 back and pair some of those, I don't know, that is up
14 to the body. But right now I hate to see things that
15 ought to be done confused with things that ought not
16 be done.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I understand. He's removing
18 them from what was recommended by the Style and
19 Drafting Committee, proposal -- or moving to do this,
20 Proposal 32 and Proposals 79 and 149. So, those
21 three, he's suggesting or moving that we remove them
22 from Revision 6 and that they be placed somewhere else
23 at a later time; is that correct?
24 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Yes, sir.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Now, does everybody
105
1 understand the motion? Style and Drafting recommended
2 that they all be together, he's moved that we take
3 these three out. Okay, anybody want to speak to it?
4 Commissioner Evans is first.
5 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Just a question. We are not
6 grouping those three that we are voting to remove out,
7 right, they are just moved out and they are separate?
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Not yet. We aren't grouping
9 them, we are just moving them out of this group as I
10 understand it.
11 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, anybody else
13 want to be heard on this? Anybody in opposition?
14 Commissioner Ford-Coates, you raised your hand, do you
15 want to speak? All right, we'll have to take a vote
16 on this, it'll be 22 votes. Open the machine and
17 let's vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
20 the vote.
21 READING CLERK: Sixteen yeas, 20 nays,
22 Mr. Chairman.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It fails. We are now on
24 Revision 6, the motion by Style and Drafting to adopt
25 it as a single revision on the ballot. All right.
106
1 Ready to vote? Unlock the machine and let's vote.
2 What we are doing now is grouping, Revision 6, the
3 grouping recommended by Style and Drafting is what we
4 are on at the moment.
5 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody hasn't voted yet,
7 we are still missing two. Lock the machine and
8 announce the vote.
9 READING CLERK: Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The grouping
12 fails by one vote, which means that they all travel
13 separately; isn't that right, Commissioner Thompson?
14 Okay.
15 (Inaudible response.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You didn't vote? Well, I
17 think somebody might do you the privilege of moving to
18 reconsider it. (Pause.) No such fairness being
19 offered from that side, that doesn't seem quite right,
20 somebody ought to give her an opportunity to vote.
21 Commissioner Smith.
22 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Mr. Chairman, because this
23 failed with people on the 21 being the non-prevailing
24 side, that's right, that was the ruling last week when
25 I asked, it did not prevail.
107
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody can move to
2 reconsider it.
3 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I vote to reconsider it, I'm
4 on the prevailing side, I mean non-prevailing side.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You can be on any side I'm
6 informed by the Secretary, and there's no debate. We
7 are on a motion to reconsider at the moment. You are
8 recognized, Commissioner Langley.
9 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: The substitute motion I
10 move to reconsider.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Oh my gosh.
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I wanted that privilege
13 for Commissioner Barnett.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anyway, we are fixing to
15 reconsider it regardless of how we got there so
16 Commissioner Barnett gets a chance to vote. All
17 right. Unlock the machine now and let's vote. This
18 is a majority vote on this one.
19 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Unlock the machine and
21 announce the vote.
22 READING CLERK: Twenty-two yeas, 12 nays,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now we are on the
25 reconsideration. This time it takes 22 votes to
108
1 maintain this as a grouping. So, unlock -- yes,
2 Commissioner Scott.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Can we just say what's in
4 the grouping now?
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We did that, and we voted on
6 it, and we are reconsidering it.
7 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Okay.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everything that's in there
9 that's recommended from Style and Drafting is there.
10 And to keep it from going singly, then you vote to put
11 it on the ballot. All right. Everybody, unlock the
12 machine and let's vote.
13 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
15 the vote.
16 READING CLERK: Twenty-two yeas, 14 nays,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you have grouped
19 it. Now, we move to Revision No. 7. All right.
20 Commissioner Mills.
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this group
22 contains a -- the series of tax exemptions that the
23 Commission passed, one related to tangible property,
24 one related to a tax exemption granted for
25 conservation easements, and one was a tax exemption,
109
1 broadening tax exemption for governmental uses of
2 municipal properties, and that related to the airport
3 and seaport debate.
4 That is combined with another local government
5 issue, which is the citizen access to local
6 governments to be able to talk to local government
7 officials.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
9 understand? There's no amendments on this, no
10 amendments on the table. So, we are on this revision,
11 Revision No. 7, which includes No. 96, which
12 prescribing tax and communications, that is the ex
13 parte communication provision; Committee Substitutes
14 for 112 and 124 by the Committee on Finance and Tax
15 providing for exemption from ad valorem from certain
16 tangible personal property and mobile homes; 135 by
17 Commissioner Henderson allowing a local option tax
18 exemption for owners of land used for conservation
19 purposes; and Committee Substitute for Proposals 49,
20 103 and 185 by Finance and Tax, revising the
21 requirements for exempting municipally-owned property
22 allowing the Legislature to exempt from taxation
23 property owned by a municipality and special district
24 and used for an airport, seaport or public purposes as
25 defined by law.
110
1 And those are the ones that are in Revision No. 7
2 that's now before you. Commissioner -- who was --
3 Commissioner Mills yields to the question from
4 Commissioner Scott.
5 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: When we are doing this, we
6 are looking at the ballot language too. I wasn't
7 clear on that last one that we ever --
8 COMMISSIONER MILLS: There were no amendments.
9 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: There were no amendments, so
10 that is a part of what we are doing with the group,
11 and I just wanted to clarify that.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Right.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Somebody told me, I think,
14 you are right, Commissioner Scott, somebody says
15 there's supposed to have been an amendment. And
16 that's what you are asking, isn't it? But it is as to
17 the ballot language.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, his question
19 was, does what we voted on in the 22 votes include the
20 ballot language, and the answer is yes, that's what we
21 have been saying.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, that's correct.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: And it was amended, the one
24 with Commissioner Barnett.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That is correct. But now we
111
1 are on the next one.
2 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Correct.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are on Revision 7, on
4 which there are no amendments on the table, as I
5 understand it. But I was told that there's supposed
6 to be one on the table; is that right, to the ballot
7 language or what? Bear with us just a moment.
8 (Pause.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are on Revision No. 7,
10 which includes the ballot language, which is in your
11 packet. It is in a different packet, but they have
12 got it. It is in this same packet on my desk, isn't
13 it? All right, there's no amendments.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I guess staff
15 wants to make sure that everybody is looking at the
16 ballot language that we are handing out, right?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is in the packet, No. 7.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Okay.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And we are ready to proceed
20 to vote on this grouping, together with the ballot
21 language, unless there's further debate.
22 All right. Let's unlock the machine and vote on
23 Revision No. 7, which is the local government
24 revisions.
25 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
112
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
2 the vote.
3 READING CLERK: Thirty-two yeas, 3 nays,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you send this
6 to Style and Drafting. Now we move to Revision No. 8,
7 which doesn't -- I don't know, it doesn't require
8 anything, does it?
9 (Pause.)
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. While everybody is
11 putting their guns in the holster, I would like to
12 take this opportunity, Senator Jim Horne is with us in
13 the gallery with the Crystal Springs Elementary fourth
14 graders to observe the process. Would you young
15 people stand up and let us see you?
16 (Applause.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We thank you for being with
18 us and we thank Senator Horne for having you here.
19 The only thing that we vote on on the firearms at this
20 time is the ballot language. Commissioner Connor.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, I have a
22 proposed amendment.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: To what?
24 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: To 167, yes, sir, I have a
25 substitute amendment.
113
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have got an amendment to
2 the proposal?
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Now, is the time he's
5 presenting an amendment to the proposal. The proposal
6 is No. 8 dealing with local option firearms, would you
7 read the proposal first?
8 READING CLERK: Revision 8 relating to local
9 option waiting period and criminal background check
10 for firearm purchases.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This original
12 proposal was adopted 24 to 11. There's now on the
13 table an amendment by Commissioner Connor.
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Read the amendment, please.
16 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Connor, on
17 Page 21, after Line 14, through Page 2, Line 6, strike
18 all of said lines and insert lengthy amendment.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The lengthy
20 amendment, Commissioner Connor, I think I had
21 previously asked you was this the same amendment that
22 you offered.
23 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It is.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But you withdrew it and it
25 was not voted on. So consequently, it's not out of
114
1 order, it hadn't been voted on.
2 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: That's my understanding.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's my ruling. And you
4 have offered it as an amendment or a substitute to the
5 proposal?
6 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: As a substitute,
7 Mr. Chairman.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does everybody understand
9 that? This is the same provision that we debated and
10 Commissioner Connor wants to explain it to you again
11 because he wants to replace the one we have got with
12 it.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, Members of
14 the Commission, for those of you who are concerned
15 about closing the gun show loophole, I believe that
16 this is the way to do it. You will recall that I
17 proffered this amendment last time and withdrew it in
18 the aftermath of discussion based on some questions
19 raised by Commissioner Smith. Let me make these
20 observations, if I may. First of all, 167, in its
21 present form, does nothing, I repeat, nothing to close
22 the so-called gun show loophole.
23 Number two, for what's been represented to you to
24 be a serious problem by virtue of this gun show
25 loophole, all 167 would do is to make that crime a
115
1 misdemeanor. The proposal that I'm offering at this
2 time would make it a felony offense for anyone engaged
3 in the business to sell a firearm at a gun show or on
4 the premises at a flea market who fails to get the
5 requisite background check and to require the
6 requisite waiting period.
7 Now, if indeed this is a serious problem that
8 causes a serious threat to public safety, I would
9 submit to you that we do not want to reduce the
10 seriousness of the crime, such as Commissioner Rundle
11 would do by virtue of her proposal. So, as a
12 consequence, if you violate this proposal, the person
13 who violates that would be guilty of a felony offense.
14 Commissioner Smith inquired last time about the
15 language "occasional." And I wanted to see what the
16 history had been with respect to that. This is
17 language that adopts the Federal language, the term
18 "occasional," it means every once in a while,
19 intermittently and without regularity, and has been
20 applied by Federal courts very much in the same way as
21 reasonable land standards. In other words, it's based
22 on the specific facts and circumstances of the case
23 and becomes a matter of fact for determination by the
24 jury.
25 There haven't been any problems, Commissioner
116
1 Smith, as I understand it, in the implementation of
2 execution of the Federal law in that regard. So, what
3 this proposal would do, very simply, is to close the
4 gun show loophole, would require that those engaged in
5 the business must retain the requisite background
6 check and waiting period, failing which the person is
7 guilty of a felony offense.
8 And if indeed this is a serious problem, such as
9 has been represented, it ought to be a felony offense
10 and not limited to a misdemeanor. I encourage you,
11 and as I mentioned, the proposal on the table, 167,
12 for which this is a substitute, does not even mention
13 the gun show issue. And I would submit to you, that
14 with respect to Commissioner Rundle's previous
15 comments, we were merely dealing with a vocal minority
16 here in opposition to her proposal.
17 And I would suggest to you that it is a very
18 vocal majority, but whether you believe these folks to
19 be in the majority or minority, I think we can all
20 recognize and agree that these are political activists
21 who will vote no on the proposal with a negative
22 impact on the rest of the ballot. So I urge you in
23 the strongest of terms to please support the
24 substitute amendment. Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. The substitute
117
1 amendment. Commissioner Sundberg. You are next,
2 Commissioner Smith.
3 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Connor for a
4 question.
5 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: The occasional sell is
7 modified, and I'm on Page 2 of your proposed
8 amendment, your substitute. It says, Including a
9 person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, et
10 cetera, for the enhancement of personal collection or
11 for a hobby or who makes an occasional sell of all or
12 a part of a personal collection of firearms.
13 Isn't that going to be a nightmare for
14 enforcement? How do the enforcement authorities know
15 whether or not the person is doing it out of a
16 personal collection or for hobby? And I assume these
17 things move from place to place. How would they make
18 that determination?
19 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Through the typical
20 investigative resources that are available to law
21 enforcement. It has not apparently been a problem at
22 all under Federal law. This language mirrors the
23 Federal law, it becomes a case specific kind of
24 determination and becomes a fact specific
25 determination by the jury.
118
1 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Well, but would you
2 perceive that these investigative tools, that they
3 would screen everyone that's going to be involved in a
4 gun show or a flea market, as to whether or not they
5 are doing it for a personal hobby? I just don't know
6 how you make those determinations, since I assume they
7 move around from place to place.
8 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, they do move around
9 from place to place, but law enforcement is involved
10 in typical law enforcement investigative techniques.
11 This has not proved to be a problem at the Federal law
12 level. Whether or not somebody is engaged in the
13 occasional sell and whether or not it is for the
14 enhancement for a personal collection is determined on
15 a case by case, fact specific kind of instance.
16 But for example, on the sell out of the back of
17 the car that we saw on the video that Commissioner
18 Rundle presented to us, classic example of what is an
19 enforcement problem. You can't sell firearms out of
20 the back of a vehicle and be engaged in the business,
21 that is a Federal crime as far as that goes. So, what
22 we had was an enforcement problem I would submit to
23 you in that instance, not a law problem. But if we
24 want to close the gun show loophole, I would submit to
25 you, this will do it.
119
1 The proposal as drafted doesn't even reference
2 gun shows, it is not self-executing, and to the extent
3 that it's intended to address a problem, it actually
4 has the effect of reducing the severity of the crime,
5 which I would submit is the wrong way to go.
6 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: But this does not
7 contemplate, does it, your substitute doesn't
8 contemplate that these people who are at these shows
9 or are doing the occasional sales have to get a
10 license, essentially, exempting them from enforcement?
11 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Correct, only those who are
12 engaged in the business, which means -- and this is
13 taken from the Federal law, which means, a person who
14 devotes time, attention and labor to dealing in
15 firearms as a regular course of trade of business with
16 the principal objective of livelihood and profit
17 through repetitive purchase and resale of firearms.
18 So, we have a very -- I think a very well -- a
19 definition with very well defined and understandable
20 parameters, but we exempt out the person who
21 occasionally, in order to enhance a personal
22 collection, makes a sale or exchange at a gun show.
23 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: But if Dick Langley shows
24 up at the Tallahassee Flea Market with his personal
25 collection, which I understand is exquisite and
120
1 extensive, there would be nothing that would require
2 him to be licensed?
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: That's correct, that's
4 exactly right. And that's the intent, in other words,
5 we do not seek to sweep into the net here those who
6 make occasional sales or whose purpose is simply to
7 enhance a personal collection.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Now, we have debated
9 this before, but Commissioner Smith, you are
10 recognized since nobody spoke up.
11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you. First of all,
12 let me say that, with regard to your research that you
13 have done on the word "occasional," I too have taken a
14 look at the Federal law. And I understand that the
15 Federal courts have dealt with this on a case-by-case
16 basis.
17 The problem that I have, Commissioner Connor, is
18 that let's impute good motives to everyone. One
19 sixty-seven is targeting the criminals who are trying
20 to have an avenue to get their hands on guns to rob me
21 and you. What I see with the proposed amendment is
22 that you are targeting the gun -- the people who are
23 violating the law with regard to being licensed.
24 In other words, this hammers a felony on those
25 individuals who are trying to circumvent the law by
121
1 not being licensed and doing more than an occasional
2 sale.
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: That's exactly right.
4 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Okay. So, my problem is
5 that, while I don't care whether it is a Constitution
6 amendment or legislation, I want to target the
7 criminal, so that my concern is if we allow H.T. Smith
8 to take his gun collection to the gun show, and his
9 gun collection is 14 guns that some militant extremist
10 can walk up to H.T. Smith, find out the person who
11 doesn't have a license, buy the gun and go out and
12 kill somebody because he doesn't have to have the
13 background check.
14 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, if you buy a gun
15 under false pretenses now, Mr. Smith, that is a felony
16 offense.
17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: But the person is dead. In
18 other words, I get the gun -- the criminal buys the
19 gun, he goes out and he kills someone.
20 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I'm the first to agree with
21 you that the existing laws need to be better enforced
22 and more vigorously enforced, but what we have had
23 represented to us is that there's a crisis at the gun
24 shows that causing a public safety problem.
25 One sixty-seven as proposed does nothing to
122
1 address that crisis, doesn't augment enforcement in
2 any way, is not self-executing in any respect, and
3 says, For those who are helping to create that crisis,
4 you do the crime, we are going to reduce your time,
5 because we are just mitigating this down to a
6 misdemeanor offense.
7 That's wrong if it is an offense of the magnitude
8 that's represented and causes the public health hazard
9 that's been represented, by golly, these folks ought
10 to be saddled with a felony offense.
11 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Well, my last question to
12 you is, honesty has been your hallmark in these
13 debates, would you agree that based upon the fact that
14 a criminal can walk in and buy a gun from someone who
15 abuses this so-called occasional rule, that that too
16 doesn't deal with closing a gun show loophole?
17 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: That criminal who buys the
18 gun does so in violation of the existing State and
19 Federal law, and then what we need is for Commissioner
20 Rundle to enforce that law to prevent a reoccurrence.
21 COMMISSIONER SMITH: So, the criminal has the
22 gun, the criminal can do the time as opposed to a
23 three-day waiting period and a check where the
24 criminal can't get the gun. In other words, the
25 object is, keep the gun out of the criminal's hand.
123
1 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: And my proposal, my
2 proposed substitute amendment will do more to prevent
3 that by a long shot than the existing Proposal 165
4 will do.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We don't have much time left.
6 Commissioner Lowndes.
7 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I have a question for
8 Commissioner Connor.
9 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir.
10 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I don't understand what
11 you mean by when you say it's changing the crime from
12 a misdemeanor to a felony.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you for asking.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Only take a minute to explain
15 it, please, we are out of time.
16 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Under the existing law,
17 counties can only declare offenses to be misdemeanors,
18 counties don't have the authority under existing law
19 to make conduct felonious in nature. And what this
20 proposal does is bring this violation that we would be
21 creating within the ambit of existing law which makes
22 it a felony to violate the law.
23 So, counties, under Commissioner Rundle's
24 proposal, don't even have the authority to make an
25 offense a felony, period, they just can't do it.
124
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
2 Rundle should have an opportunity since it's her
3 proposal and all the time has been used. Commissioner
4 Rundle.
5 COMMISIONER RUNDLE: Commissioners, let me just
6 address the issue about the reduction of a crime, I
7 think there's a lot of confusion on that issue. Right
8 now Florida Statutes say that it is a felony for a
9 retailer or a licensed arms dealer to sell without a
10 three-day waiting period or background check. It does
11 not apply to those who don't have licenses, who are
12 not engaged in the business, those are all red herring
13 languages that allow the loophole presently to exist.
14 So, right now, it is not a crime. So, what we
15 are trying to do is allow local communities to make it
16 a crime consistent with what every other store owner
17 or law-abiding citizen has to do. I would be the last
18 one to stand up here and say, Let's reduce it, let's
19 not make it a crime, let's make a felony a
20 misdemeanor, that simply isn't the case.
21 What we are trying to do is cut off one of the
22 many sources that allows criminals to have free
23 access, no questions asked, no paper trace, no rules
24 apply, walk into a gun show or up to the van that
25 Commissioner Freidin told you she saw personally, and
125
1 buy a gun, and then it's too late, like Commissioner
2 Smith says. We are trying to close off one of those
3 sources. This amendment doesn't do it.
4 And Commissioner Connor has said it's a repeat of
5 the Federal law, and that's a part of the problem.
6 The Federal law applies to licensed dealers engaged in
7 the business. We are trying to say no, it's anyone
8 who sells in a public place has to at least do what
9 store owners do. And by the way, gun store owners
10 support 167.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are on the substitute
12 amendment, and no, I think you had -- in those
13 questions, Commissioner Connor, you got an extra four
14 minutes already. Commissioner Marshall, did you rise
15 for a question?
16 COMMISSIONER MARSHALL: I do, Mr. Chairman, to
17 Commissioner Rundle. You did not address the question
18 of one of Commissioner Connor's points, the
19 contamination of the amendments that we advance to the
20 ballot, and I'm concerned about that, how the public
21 would respond to this measure, the effect that it
22 might have on other measures.
23 COMMISIONER RUNDLE: I feel that this has a great
24 point of support from Florida citizens and I think the
25 history has proven that. If you look back to 1987
126
1 when the Legislature said, Leave it up to the citizens
2 to vote, put it on the ballot that is the waiting
3 period for handguns that presently exists in the
4 Constitution. The citizens overwhelmingly supported
5 it by 84 percent.
6 We have also had several polls that have occurred
7 since our commission began where it shows its citizens
8 support proposals that require waiting periods and
9 criminal background checks. Florida citizens do
10 believe in some communities in this state that there
11 is a crisis. In my community there is a crisis, in
12 Orlando there is a crisis. And a lot of those
13 citizens ought to have the ability to say, There is a
14 crisis in my community, I support this effort, it's
15 waiting period and background checks.
16 That language has been tested, I think that it
17 stands alone right now in its own grouping, it doesn't
18 contaminate anything else, I think, in fact, it
19 carries much of the other proposals that are going to
20 be on the ballot.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I think we are
22 ready to vote on the substitute amendment. Let's open
23 the machine and record your vote. This is on the
24 substitute amendment.
25 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
127
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
2 the vote.
3 READING CLERK: Twelve yeas, 23 nays,
4 Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The substitute amendment
6 fails. We are now on the proposal for which there's
7 nothing left to vote on, I guess; is that right?
8 Ballot language, excuse me. The only thing that we
9 are voting on here is the ballot language which is in
10 your packet on ballot language. And that is -- it's
11 on Revision No. 8, local option to firearms.
12 Commissioner Sundberg.
13 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: For a question of the
14 Chair. You, and this, on several occasions, you said
15 all we have to vote on is the ballot language, but we
16 are not voting on the proposal?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct.
18 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: So that, if for any
19 reason the proposal itself gets amended or doesn't
20 carry, we have ballot language to go with either
21 nothing or with something that has changed?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, it travels with the
23 proposal later, Commissioner Sundberg. We don't have
24 to worry about that yet. It's not going to be voted
25 on for final, but when it's voted on for final it will
128
1 have the ballot language attached to it, it will be
2 part of what we vote on.
3 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Mr. Chairman, I'm bumping
4 up to 65 years of age and I want to be sure I'm still
5 alive when we finally get around to voting on these
6 things.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I'm bumping on 68, and I can
8 assure you that if I'm alive, you will be alive unless
9 you get drunk between now and the time we both die.
10 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: You too.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But I can't move it any
12 faster than I am. Everybody read the ballot language?
13 If there are no amendments, all in favor of the ballot
14 language, say aye. Opposed?
15 (Verbal vote taken.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The ballot language passes.
17 We move to Revision 9, which has several in it. Would
18 you read it please?
19 READING CLERK: Revision No. 9, relating to
20 individual rights and religious freedom.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: This also, and I'll read them
22 off quickly, includes Proposal 5 by Commissioner
23 Planas, prohibiting discrimination on national origin;
24 Proposal 11 by Commissioner Freidin, providing that
25 persons may not be deprived of their rights because of
129
1 gender; Committee Substitute for 14 by the Committee
2 on Declaration of Rights and Freidin, changing the
3 term physical handicap to physical disability; and
4 Proposal 187 by Commissioner Connor, limiting
5 conditions for restrictions on the free exercise of
6 religion.
7 Commissioner Mills, you are recognized from Style
8 and Drafting.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, the
10 recommendation for grouping includes the basic rights
11 that you read, religious freedom, they are both in
12 Article I, Section 2, and Article I, Section 3.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Let's have your
14 attention please. We have got to get moving to keep
15 Commissioner Sundberg and me and Commissioners
16 Barkdull and Marshall alive. All right. Commissioner
17 Mills.
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, I understand that
19 there is a -- will be a motion by Commissioner Connor
20 or others to separate these two.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But there are no amendments
22 on the table; is that correct?
23 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Connor on Page 1,
24 Lines 28 and 29, delete the words, The state or any
25 political subdivision or agency thereof, and insert, A
130
1 governmental entity.
2 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: That as it relates to
3 Proposal 187, Mr. Chairman, and the purpose, very
4 simply, is to correct a technical glitch, as I
5 understand it, the term, The state or its political
6 subdivisions, may not include a city, and so the
7 desire was to substitute the language, a governmental
8 entity may not, so that no governmental entity can.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You are absolutely right,
10 subdivision doesn't include municipal corporations,
11 but a public entity does, so you are offering a
12 technical amendment to 187, which is limiting the
13 restrictions on free exercise of religion to make sure
14 that it includes all government; is that right?
15 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. All in favor of the
17 amended, say aye. Opposed?
18 (Verbal vote taken.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. No. 187 is
20 amended as stated.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Mr. Chairman, if I may --
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Do we have any more
23 amendments?
24 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Connor, on Line
25 1, Line 31, after the word "rule," insert "or law."
131
1 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: On No. 187, explain the
3 amendment, Commissioner Connor.
4 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: There was a concern about
5 whether or not a rule of general application also
6 included a law of general application, and so we are
7 providing any rule or law of general application.
8 Again that's technical in nature, Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody on Style
10 and Drafting have any comments on that? If not, all
11 in favor, say aye. Opposed?
12 (Verbal vote taken.)
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. No. 187 has the
14 two amendments so far. Any more amendments on the
15 table?
16 READING CLERK: None on the desk, Mr. Chairman.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There are no
18 further amendments on the desk. Commissioner Connor,
19 you are recognized for a motion.
20 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, sir. Mr. Chairman, I
21 move that we divide the ballot proposal so as to
22 segment Proposal 187 away from the rest of the group.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
24 Mills.
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Just to clarify the motion.
132
1 This motion would leave the rest of those proposals
2 grouped and you would remove religious freedom. Okay.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does everybody
4 understand the motion? Does anybody want to speak to
5 the motion? I think the motion is pretty
6 self-evident. Commissioner Connor moves to take out
7 No. 187 and leave all of the rest of them intact. And
8 if he's successful, then we'll vote on keeping all of
9 the rest of them there.
10 All right. If you are ready to vote on this
11 motion, it'll be on the machine. It is a motion to
12 remove Proposal 187, limiting additions for
13 restriction on the free exercise of religion on this
14 particular proposal. And at this point it would leave
15 it as a single proposal unless it's grouped again.
16 All right. Ready to vote, open the machine and let's
17 vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. One person -- now
20 everybody has voted. Lock the machine and announce
21 the vote.
22 READING CLERK: Twenty-nine yeas, 6 nays,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. It's moved off.
25 Now, we revert back to the motion as relating to the
133
1 other items in Revision 9 and it is on grouping now
2 and ballot language, which is also there, both items.
3 Commissioner Scott, you are recognized.
4 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Mr. Chairman, I believe that
5 where there is a change that both proposals have to go
6 back for a change in the ballot language for
7 resubmission; am I right about that? But you are
8 still voting on whether they would be grouped?
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct, and the
10 ballot language on those that are left grouped. The
11 one that we moved out, Commissioner Scott, we haven't
12 voted on the ballot language on it yet, it's moved to
13 the foot of the class for that.
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Okay. But the remaining
15 ballot language would have to be changed to reflect
16 only what's left in it.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, I am --
18 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: So, we can't vote on the
19 ballot language, but the grouping --
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, we can, because I'm
21 going to interpret him removing that one as removing
22 the ballot language relating to that one.
23 (Off-the-record discussion.)
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, that's true, but they
25 are going to amend it, as I understand it, y'all will
134
1 amend it when you come back anyway. So I don't think
2 we need to take more time on it unless Commissioner
3 Freidin does. Commissioner Freidin.
4 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: I just handed some
5 language that I think improves that ballot language
6 significantly to Ms. Kearney and what she was
7 suggesting is that when this gets referred back to
8 Style and Drafting we could present my amendment to
9 Style and Drafting and see now if they would bring it
10 back in the form that I just redrafted it, so my
11 preference would be if we could have them both come
12 back with their own separate ballot language and then
13 let the Commission vote on that proposed ballot
14 language.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley.
16 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Well, the problem with
17 that is that we could be put in the position of voting
18 twice more on that if we didn't accept that ballot
19 language, so if it's there let's consider it now. All
20 of the other amendments have been presented now, let's
21 consider this now.
22 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: If we can mechanically get
23 it on the desk, that's fine with me.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, let's mechanically get
25 it on the desk. We can temporarily pass Revision 9
135
1 and come back to that for the proper amendment on the
2 ballot language, and we'll do that unless there's
3 objections.
4 Without objections, we'll temporarily pass
5 Revision 9 and return to it when we get rid of No. 10
6 and what will now be No. 11. Commissioner Connor, if
7 you would get your ballot language ready for 187, it's
8 going to come back up as soon as we finish Revision
9 10, and then we are going to revert to 9 and then
10 yours will be after 9. So, you will need your ballot
11 language on the desk when we come back.
12 Now, we are on Revision No. 10, which is
13 miscellaneous technical. Would you read it please?
14 READING CLERK: Revision 10, relating to
15 miscellaneous technical, by the Committee on Style and
16 Drafting, on Page 7, Line 21, after the word "the,"
17 insert "governors."
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I'll explain
20 this, and also let me ask you to clarify, and ask the
21 Commission to see if we know what we are doing with
22 regard to those things that we have split. We have
23 split two proposals, which will end up being four
24 proposals. As I understood, I think what you said
25 before is once those groups were split they would be
136
1 referred to Style and Drafting for redrafting the
2 ballot language to reflect that new grouping.
3 Now, if you do that, and Commissioner Scott, you
4 need to listen to this, because if you do that, it
5 would require two more votes. Because you would, I
6 guess, vote on, consistent with what we did before,
7 you would vote on the ballot language and then vote on
8 final passage. I mean, I don't think this is
9 substantively a problem, but what you need, the ballot
10 language does need to be adjusted when these are
11 split, and we did not vote on the ballot language on
12 reapportionment when we split it.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Scott.
14 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I suggest that we just stick
15 with where we were, and I don't even know, no position
16 on any of this. And the reason is that once these
17 have been split then they are going to come back and
18 then they could be either amended into another
19 revision or group or whatever, or they could be on
20 their own and the proposals that come back could be
21 amended because they are now a different proposal.
22 So I just think that if we just go ahead -- we
23 are going to come back here with apparently only two,
24 four instead of two with the ballot language, and then
25 they would be subject to regrouping if that were the
137
1 will or then, if not, then final passage.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Answer your question, on
3 these items to which we have not adopted ballot
4 language, which includes the one that we split and the
5 one we just split, when we come back, we'll vote on
6 the ballot language before we vote on the final vote.
7 So, you will have two votes, in effect, but it won't
8 be on the ballot language because you will have
9 already have adopted it probably. Okay. Let's not
10 get hung up on that, and let's move on to No. 10
11 before we come back to No. 9.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Okay. Mr. Chairman, this
13 has the catchy title of miscellaneous and technical.
14 These proposals, if you look through them, I believe
15 almost all of them were unanimous. These were put in
16 here, the thinking of the Style and Drafting Committee
17 was that none of these were major changes in the
18 Constitution or major changes in policy. And
19 consistent with trying to group things that were major
20 changes, that is perhaps the other nine, that these,
21 in order to keep under the 75-word rule, we had to
22 move this out.
23 Now, this ballot language does describe this
24 series of proposals. And so I would be glad to
25 respond to any questions.
138
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Also, you will
2 recall, you added to this by your previous vote,
3 Proposals 4, 25 and 44, the military proposals by
4 Commissioner Langley.
5 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we had
6 already done that.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. So, we are now
8 preparing to vote to make Revision 10 consistent with
9 Proposal 35 which passed 32 to nothing relating to
10 ethics and government. Proposal 37 by Commissioner
11 Freidin passed 25 to 2, adopting language that's not
12 gender specific. Committee Substitute for Proposal
13 133 by the Committee on Finance and Tax and
14 Commissioner Scott, 31 to nothing, providing
15 guidelines for the public review period for the
16 General Appropriations Act.
17 Proposal 179 by Commissioner Thompson, providing
18 guidelines for legislative consideration of veto
19 messages, provides in calculation a 72-hour period
20 review period for general appropriation bills, and it
21 was passed 32 to nothing.
22 And one repealing Section 6 relating to the
23 Taxation and Budget Reform Commission, and that was
24 adopted 30 to 1. Proposal 152 by Commissioner
25 Barkdull, amending the deadline for the CRC in filing
139
1 a proposed revision, that was 29 to nothing. The
2 other three were under the Judicial Revision 3, and
3 that was 4 by Langley, Commissioner Langley,
4 clarifying the authority of the Department of military
5 Affairs to court-martial and to impose sentences. And
6 25 by Commissioner Langley providing for military
7 court-martial to be conducted by military judges with
8 direct appeal to the District Court of Appeal.
9 Proposal 44 by Commissioner Langley, allowing the
10 State Supreme Court to give question of military law
11 to Federal Court. The first one was 26 to zero, the
12 second one, 28 to 1, and the last one was 26 to
13 nothing.
14 Okay. Is everybody ready to vote on those as a
15 grouping, together with the ballot language, which
16 will probably come back to us? Commissioner Barkdull.
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I need to ask
18 Commissioner Mills a question, please. I'm not trying
19 to be overly technical, but do you think that we could
20 get some better words than miscellaneous technical as
21 a catch-all for this thing?
22 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, we would be glad to
23 accept --
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: How about adjustments and
25 corrections? I mean --
140
1 COMMISSIONER MILLS: We are perfectly willing to
2 accept adjustments and corrections.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We'll defer it for
4 consideration to Style and Drafting, which they are
5 going to meet right after we close.
6 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would
7 recommend him to go ahead and offer that as an
8 amendment if he wants to.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have three amendments on
10 the table.
11 COMMISSIONER MILLS: On this one?
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Uh-huh (Indicating
13 affirmatively.) Would you read --
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, while we are
15 considering those, you could offer that as an
16 amendment to the title.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She read the first one. We
18 didn't vote on it, did we? Read it again, read the
19 first one.
20 READING CLERK: By the Committee on Style and
21 Drafting, on Page 7, Line 21, after the word, "the"
22 insert "governors."
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
24 the amendment, say aye. Opposed?
25 (Verbal vote taken.)
141
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted.
2 Read the next one.
3 READING CLERK: By the Committee on Style and
4 Drafting, on Page 10, Line 10, delete the word
5 respective.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor, say
7 aye.
8 (Verbal vote taken.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. No. 3.
10 READING CLERK: By Commissioners Freidin, Mathis,
11 and Evans-Jones, on Page 16, Lines 19 and 23, and on
12 Page 17, Lines 24 and 26, delete the word chairperson
13 and insert chair.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor, say
15 aye. Opposed?
16 (Verbal vote taken.)
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have adopted the
18 amendments. Now, are we ready to vote now on the
19 grouping with the ballot language that we have got?
20 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If Commissioner Barkdull --
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You have got another
22 amendment?
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I
24 suppose that we could come back. He could offer that
25 in Style and Drafting and we could --
142
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let's do that and let's go
2 ahead and vote on this. Unlock the machine and vote
3 on No. 10.
4 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Unlock the machine and
6 announce the vote.
7 READING CLERK: Thirty-five yeas, zero nays,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you have
10 grouped these together. Now, we have got No. 9, we
11 have got to go back to No. 9 and there is an amendment
12 on the desk.
13 We are back on Revision No. 9 that we temporarily
14 passed. And there is an amendment on the desk which
15 you will please read.
16 READING CLERK: Ballot language for Revision 9
17 states that females and males alike are equal before
18 the law and that no person shall be deprived of any
19 right because of national origin, changes physical
20 handicap to physical disability as persons are being
21 protected from being denied from any right.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody understand the
23 amendment? Who offered the amendment, Style and
24 Drafting? Commissioner Freidin, do you want to
25 explain your amendment?
143
1 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: There's no substantive
2 change, I think it simply puts it in more readable,
3 more understandable language.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We are on the
5 amendment. Commissioner Langley, on the amendment.
6 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: This really is not in
7 jestgist, but do we have any obligation to warn the
8 public of the possible implications of what we are
9 putting before them? I'm serious about that.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Certainly we'll issue all
11 kinds of --
12 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I mean, should we put
13 language in there, May legitimize homosexual
14 marriages, should we put that in there as part of the
15 title?
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, you are a Commissioner,
17 maybe you ought to tell us. I'm not going to answer
18 your question.
19 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I am serious, we have no
20 obligation to warn people of our interpretation of
21 these?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
23 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chariman, in serious
24 response to that, the obligation and title of ballot
25 language is to describe the contents. And the case
144
1 law around it says that you don't have to describe
2 every possible implication.
3 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: That was a serious
4 question.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Smith on the
6 amendment.
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you. And in response
8 to Commissioner Langley, I hope that he notices from
9 the Journal of 1997-'98 Constitution Revision
10 Commission, dated Tuesday, March 17th, 1998, on
11 Page 213, it states, As a sponsor of that proposal,
12 Proposal 11, I state, unequivocally, that in offering
13 this proposal, I do not intend and have never intended
14 for it to form the basis for a right to same sex
15 marriage in this state. Furthermore, I am satisfied
16 that adoption of this proposal by the voters would not
17 confer such rights.
18 So, I don't think what you said was in jest, and
19 I just wanted you to know that the intent of the
20 proponent of the proposal has been put in writing in
21 posterity for the public.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. That answers your
23 question. Now, we'll vote on the amendment.
24 Commissioner Morsani, on the amendment.
25 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: I'm concerned in that we
145
1 have done so much work, I mean, Style and Drafting has
2 done so much work on this and then suddenly we are
3 changing it, I just have a problem with -- I don't
4 know what the problem is, but --
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Morsani, the
6 Style and Drafting expert here is going to answer you,
7 Commissioner Lowndes.
8 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: There's very little change
9 from what Style and Drafting has originally done to
10 what Ellen has done, she has just changed --
11 Commissioner Freidin has done, she's just changed a
12 few words. It says exactly the same thing as it said
13 before.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Just offered it as cleaner
15 language, as I understand it.
16 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Well what happened, once
17 you separate, we are under the 75-word burden, and
18 once you separate the religious freedom from the other
19 parts of that, you have more words, and she added a
20 few more words, but she has not changed the meaning or
21 substance of what Style and Drafting originally agreed
22 to.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: In other words, you favor the
24 amendment?
25 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: Yes, sir.
146
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does that answer your
2 question, Commissioner Morsani?
3 COMMISSIONER MORSANI: I don't know.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. All in favor of the
5 amendment, say aye. Opposed?
6 (Verbal vote taken.)
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The amendment is adopted and
8 now we'll vote on Revision No. 9, which no longer
9 includes Proposal 187, and we are also voting on
10 whatever ballot language is there, which can be
11 amended by Style and Drafting when we come back. All
12 right. Is everybody ready to vote? Unlock the
13 machine and let's vote.
14 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Zack, you
16 haven't voted. Commissioner Rundle. All right, let's
17 vote. There we go. Lock the machine and announce the
18 vote.
19 READING CLERK: Thirty yeas, 6 nays,
20 Mr. Chairman.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you have
22 adopted that grouping. Commissioner Barkdull, you are
23 recognized.
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: To make a motion to
25 reconsider.
147
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Make your motion.
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I would like to move that
3 we reconsider the vote by which Revision Packet No. 1
4 failed.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That was an amendment, wasn't
6 it?
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, I can't get back to
8 it until I get it --
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Oh, it didn't pass?
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It didn't pass.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The grouping passed. The
12 grouping passed 32 to 3. What you have to move to do
13 is the amendment which failed, the amendment to
14 Committee Substitutes for 36 and 38 -- no, wait a
15 minute, for 45 is what failed.
16 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It is my understanding
17 that the amendment failed.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But that was an amendment to
19 No. 45.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It takes a super majority
21 vote, so anybody is on the prevailing side.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. She tells me that
23 you are right. First of all, in order to vote on that
24 amendment, we have to move to vote to reconsider the
25 matter, the entire matter that we voted on. If you
148
1 want to reconsider the amendment that was offered by
2 Commissioner Henderson.
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No, by Commissioner
4 Thompson.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By Commissioner Thompson,
6 then you need to vote to reconsider, at which time
7 then the amendment that failed by one vote, I think it
8 was, will be reconsidered if it's -- if it's -- if the
9 motion to reconsider is adopted.
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I've got to get it back
11 on the table before I can reach the amendment.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Thompson.
13 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: My understanding would be
14 that we have been voting on approving the groupings,
15 not final action on the proposals, and therefore it's
16 still available to us for amendment until it comes
17 back again. Well, it would be available then.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The problem with that, I
19 think, would be that since we had this specific
20 amendment that was offered and it was defeated, that
21 the time to reconsider it is before Style and Drafting
22 goes back, because if it is reconsidered and then it
23 is adopted, the grouping would include that in it.
24 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Well, Style and Drafting
25 hasn't gone back yet.
149
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I know that, but I think what
2 she says is that we need to, if we are going to
3 reconsider the amendment which failed, we need to do
4 it now.
5 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: That's what I want to do.
6 I believe that's what Commissioner Barkdull is trying
7 to do.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's what I'm trying to
9 do.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. That's correct. So,
11 if you vote to reconsider this, then we will vote on
12 the amendment again which lost by one vote; is that
13 right?
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yeah, yeah.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does everybody understand
16 which amendment that was, Commissioner Thompson's
17 amendment? Anybody that doesn't remember that?
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: We are on a motion to
19 reconsider, Mr. Chairman, I believe that it takes a
20 majority vote.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. It takes a
22 majority vote to reconsider, but it takes 22 votes, if
23 you vote again, to pass the amendment, otherwise it
24 fails. Now, Commissioner Alfonso, did you have a
25 question or comment, sir?
150
1 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Just a comment.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay.
3 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Has anyone ever seen the
4 movie Groundhog Day?
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, we have a few others
7 that have done this too, you know. Anyway, your point
8 is made. All right. We are going to vote on
9 reconsideration. It takes a majority vote. All in
10 favor of reconsideration, say aye. Opposed?
11 (Verbal vote taken.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We will vote. Unlock the
13 machine and let's vote. This is on the motion the
14 reconsider. It takes a majority vote.
15 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
17 the vote.
18 READING CLERK: Twenty yeas, 14 nays,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The motion to reconsider is
21 adopted. We will now move to reconsider the amendment
22 by Commissioner Thompson. Commissioner Thompson, you
23 are recognized on the matter.
24 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman
25 and Members for reconsidering this again. I have
151
1 suffered with many of you as you have had your ideas
2 reconsidered, and I appreciate you suffering through
3 this with me. I do think that it's something that you
4 ought to submit for your final consideration today
5 before we go back and try to come out with our final
6 product. And the reason is, first of all, let me tell
7 you, as Commissioner Henderson said this morning, it
8 is a very legitimate point of view. He was for it,
9 and vacillated back and forth and finally decided
10 that, all things considered, he was not going to be
11 supportive of it at this point.
12 But the other point that was brought out this
13 morning that I think was of paramount interest is the
14 one that was brought out by Commissioner Sundberg when
15 he asked a simple question, can't the Legislature do
16 this, can't the Legislature methodically, in an
17 organized fashion, hearing from all parties concerned,
18 take this license money and do what needs to be done
19 for the people and for the marine life in our state,
20 rather than, rather than taking $18 million in one
21 lump sum and putting it into a new bureaucracy that
22 nobody gets a chance to vote on?
23 Do you want to leave it over in an agency where
24 there's answerability to the people, or do you want to
25 stick it over somewhere where the people are shut out
152
1 of the process? I'll tell you, we want to insulate
2 the species, we want to insulate our marine life a
3 little bit from raw politics, but I want to submit to
4 you that if you do what we are doing here without my
5 amendment, you are going to be taking the chances of
6 undoing some other good things that the state of
7 Florida has been doing for a long time with no real
8 complaint.
9 So, I'll submit to you, it has been a good idea,
10 it was a good idea when Commissioner Henderson
11 originally liked it, and it is still a good idea.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Freidin.
13 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: I have a question for
14 Commissioner Thompson. Could you explain for us what
15 we have the chance of undoing?
16 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: I think you would take
17 the chance of undoing research and organized specific
18 programs that are going on within DEP. Now, if you
19 know what all of those are, you wouldn't want to vote
20 for my amendment. If you don't know what all of those
21 are, you want to vote for my amendment and let the
22 Legislature decide very methodically and on an
23 informed basis what those are and whether they should
24 stay within DEP or whether or not they are transferred
25 to this new constitutional agency.
153
1 I think that everybody agrees, generally, that we
2 want to transfer the things that I spoke about this
3 morning, we want to transfer the size limits, the bag
4 limits, and we want to transfer the seasons and that
5 sort of thing. I think the Legislature will follow
6 very quickly in trying to transfer certain authority
7 over them. And that will mean moving some programs.
8 I think that the Marine Patrol will probably be
9 one of the first ones. And I think that's why the
10 sports fishermen of this state want this, and I think
11 that is a worthy goal. But there are things beyond
12 that that you and I are now admitting on this floor,
13 we don't know what they are. Let the Legislature in
14 an educated fashion figure out what they are and do
15 what they think is right about them.
16 COMMISSIONER FREIDEN: May I ask one more
17 question? Do the commercial fishermen have a position
18 on, or would they have a position on this amendment?
19 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Not that I know of. I
20 would have no idea, but I doubt it. I think their
21 position is that they are against this whole matter, I
22 think that they are against this whole proposal.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso was up,
24 and then you are up next, Commissioner Smith.
25 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Go ahead.
154
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Alfonso yields
2 to Commissioner Smith.
3 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I have a question. During
4 the course of debate on this issue, the thing that
5 concerned me was discussion about the federal law, I
6 think it's Senator Breaux, and the fact that in some
7 ways mandates the position that is taken by --
8 recommended by the committee. And I think either
9 Commissioner Alfonso or maybe Commissioner Henderson,
10 didn't you bring that up? Would you explain that for
11 those of us who don't know very much about this
12 conservation issue?
13 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: Thank you, I will try
14 again. As Commissioner Thompson said, when we spoke
15 about this last time, I guess a week, not the last
16 time or the time before that, but maybe a week ago,
17 that I had never heard of Wallop-Breaux until this
18 issue came up, Wallop-Breaux Federal Aquatic Resources
19 Trust Fund Act.
20 At the time that we tried to craft the language
21 that now Commissioner Thompson is proffering to you,
22 we thought we were trying to fix this problem with
23 Wallop-Breaux. I'm, at this point, convinced that you
24 cannot fix that problem, you cannot fix that problem
25 because what Wallop-Breaux says, very simply, is that
155
1 license fees paid by fishermen need to go to the Fish
2 and Game Department of the particular state.
3 Right now it is split because we have two Fish
4 and Game Departments, we have a freshwater fish
5 department and a saltwater fish department. The
6 saltwater, in case, now is DEP.
7 The proposal which is before you unifies the two,
8 it will create a new agency and pull it together. So
9 the Wallop-Breaux funds will go to the new agency, and
10 so that's -- you can't fix that. The question is, if
11 you do not require, prohibit some diversion, which is
12 what's now before us, and the issue is could you lose
13 that money.
14 That was the issue raised by the Game Commission
15 and by other lawyers that have looked at this, and
16 that's why I don't want -- that's why, to make it very
17 clear, since it looks like -- since it's been
18 suggested that I've vacillated on the issue, to make
19 it very clear that I oppose the amendment today and
20 support the proposal in its present form, because I do
21 think, and I think the people who support this
22 proposal clearly believe that their saltwater fishing
23 license fees should go to the new agency.
24 Now, clearly, the new agency, through the
25 Legislature, will be able to define the terms of the
156
1 license, can contract back with DEP, continue the good
2 work of the research institute, continue to decide
3 what to do about the marine patrol.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
5 Langley, I think that we can recognize that his
6 vacillation that's been ongoing has just ended.
7 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I was going to suggest to
8 maybe wait 15 minutes and he'll be back on our side.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, you know, if you want
10 to take a recess, we'll try.
11 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Seriously, I'm not known
12 to be a tree hugger and I haven't even been hugged by
13 many of the tree huggers, but that isn't what this is
14 about. What this is about, and this problem, bringing
15 it up with Federal funding, if the Legislature, put
16 this in the Legislature, and if that is indeed the
17 case, the Legislature can give all of this money to
18 the Commission, but if you don't do this, they cannot.
19 And the problem is, you know, the part of this --
20 the first part of the proposition puts an added burden
21 on the State to conserve its natural resources. And
22 it is an added burden, and it makes it very clear.
23 But now we are saying, But you are not going to get
24 any of the funding from the improved natural resources
25 that you are conserving, that's all going to this
157
1 independent commission. That's not right, you put the
2 burden on the State and the awards on the commission.
3 This way, the State, under the amendment, the
4 State can do that which it has to do if it's in
5 jeopardy of losing the money, it can give it all, and
6 if not, it can appropriate it out as it sees fit. And
7 that's what the Legislature is there for.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any further discussion on the
9 amendment? The amendment is what we are on.
10 Commissioner Alfonso, you have the floor.
11 COMMISSIONER ALFONSO: Okay. Again, I still do
12 not understand how the Legislature is going to give up
13 this money once they get it. I don't understand that.
14 Did they ever pass a net law; did they ever protect a
15 resource when they had a chance? If they get the
16 money, are they going to give it up? You are really
17 looking at jeopardizing this commission, taking away
18 the revenue that the people think they are giving this
19 commission.
20 If this commission is indeed to be trusted with
21 this, why can't they contract out with FDEP, just like
22 we have been saying? Why did this come up at the end?
23 Why are all of these mysterious programs that we have
24 not learned about while we have been studying this for
25 the last eight months all of a sudden coming up? I
158
1 just don't understand. And I think we really would be
2 gutting this unification proposal to take away the
3 saltwater license fees.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: To close, Commissioner
5 Thompson.
6 COMMISSIONER THOMPSON: Thank you. And thank you
7 again, Commissioners, for giving us the opportunity to
8 reconsider this. Commissioner Smith, if you are
9 concerned about that, then that -- the Wallop-Breaux
10 Act, based on what you and I are looking at, and I
11 noticed that you are looking at the same thing I am,
12 if you will read that and think about what's been
13 going on now, then maybe the State is already in
14 violation.
15 I suspect that it isn't, I suspect what happens
16 in this is, as in health care and many other things,
17 when the Federal government sends money, they always
18 have some strings, and if the State isn't in perfect
19 compliance, let me tell you just exactly how that
20 works, you get your little delegation from the
21 Legislature and the Governor's office and they go to
22 Washington, and they get their delegation for Florida,
23 and they talk it out and they come back and they
24 change the law and they get the money and they figure
25 it out.
159
1 So, that's exactly what is going to happen if we
2 adopt my amendment, it's all going to work out. But
3 if you don't adopt my amendment, you are going to have
4 a newly created commission that is appointed, not
5 elected, not answerable to anybody that's going to be
6 administering funds that they never dreamed that they
7 would instead of having the well thought out and
8 balanced programs that our Legislature has been
9 providing for.
10 I think we'll all get there, exactly where we
11 want to go, I think we are all basically for this
12 proposal, but I think it's better with this amendment.
13 Thank you for your consideration.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Let's vote.
15 Unlock the machine and let's vote on the amendment by
16 Commissioner Thompson.
17 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Somebody hasn't voted.
19 Somebody besides the Chair. Commissioner Smith.
20 Commissioner Smith.
21 (Inaudible.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: What if I don't vote,
23 Commissioner Langley, is that all right? This isn't
24 final, is it, this is on amendment, right? Then I
25 won't vote. Lock the machine and announce the vote.
160
1 READING CLERK: Twenty-two yeas, 13 nays,
2 Mr. Chairman.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you adopted the
4 amendment. All right. Now, we are back on the
5 revision; is that correct, Commissioner Barkdull?
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir, as amended.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: As amended, which we passed.
8 We need to do it again. All right. Unlock the
9 machine and vote on the revision. This includes
10 everything that's in this revision this time, so we
11 have gotten that out of the way. This is on the
12 revision itself. On the revision. The grouping, the
13 grouping, then we are going to have a break here and
14 we are going to get back. A couple of people haven't
15 voted. All right. Let's vote. Everybody vote.
16 Somebody is missing out here.
17 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
19 the vote.
20 READING CLERK: Thirty yeas, 4 nays,
21 Mr. Chairman.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, the grouping is
23 adopted. Now, here's what we are going to do, just a
24 moment, everybody listen here, listen up, we are going
25 to take a 30-minute recess. The Style and Drafting
161
1 Committee is going to meet in Room H here in the
2 Senate Office Building, Room H in the Senate Office
3 Building Style and Drafting will meet at.
4 At 3:30 we will be back here to begin voting on
5 the final voting. Does everybody understand? It is
6 on the fourth floor, H is on the fourth floor in the
7 Senate Office Building. Go around there and walk back
8 across the way to the Senate Office Building.
9 Commissioner Lowndes.
10 COMMISSIONER LOWNDES: I would just like to hear
11 from the Chair exactly what we are going to vote on
12 when we come back so that everybody will know. I
13 think we need to know that before we go to Style and
14 Drafting. When we come back, are we going to vote on
15 the 12 groups, are we going to vote on the individual
16 proposals, what are we going to vote on?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are going to vote on the
18 12 groups, final vote. However, as I understand it,
19 correct me if I'm wrong, Commissioner Barkdull, at
20 that time, if somebody wants to move one of them out,
21 either a group or a proposal, they can do so.
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir, by 22 votes.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By 22 votes, right?
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. When that's done
162
1 then we vote on each revision, and if there's only one
2 in it, that will be a vote on it. If there's more
3 than one in it, it's on a vote on all of them. It
4 could be on the ballot with the ballot language as is
5 going to be furnished by Style and Drafting.
6 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Right.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So, this will be a final vote
8 on the groupings. Everything on there now has gotten
9 22 votes or it wouldn't be there at a prior meeting.
10 And then we'll vote, if someone moves to take one out,
11 we'll vote on that separately, and then if it stays in
12 it will be in, and then we'll vote on the revision.
13 If it is a single item and we haven't combined it with
14 anything, it'll be voted on just like the other
15 groups. Commissioner Evans, you have a question.
16 COMMISSIONER EVANS: These revisions have been
17 numbered 1 through 10. We have not voted on those
18 numbers, does that mean where they appear on the
19 ballot, like No. 1 is first and No. 10 is last, or
20 whatever the last one number is, and we vote on those
21 numbers?
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Barkdull.
23 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It's my understanding
24 from the Chairman of the Style and Drafting Committee
25 that that's not the recommended order on the ballot.
163
1 I'm subject to correction by the Chairman, but that's
2 my understanding.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's my understanding, that
4 they will then make a recommendation; is that right?
5 Commissioner Mills, after we come back and we get all
6 of the revisions that we are going to have, we have
7 gotten 22 votes on what's on there, then Style and
8 Drafting is going to make a proposal as to where they
9 go on the ballot, or are we going to delegate that to
10 Style and Drafting?
11 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, it was my -- I
12 don't know if that's been specifically delegated. If
13 it hadn't, then I suppose --
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It has not.
15 COMMISSIONER MILLS: If it has not, then after we
16 vote on all of those, 10 to 12, then we can meet
17 again.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, why don't you feel that
19 out while you are in this meeting so it won't take
20 long.
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: We can do that.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Room H in the Senate
23 Office Building, and we'll be back here at 3:30. We
24 stand in recess until 3:30.
25 (Recess taken.)
164
1 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
2 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
3 commissioners indicate your presence.
4 (Pause.)
5 Quorum call. Quorum call. All commissioners
6 indicate your presence. All commissioners indicate
7 your presence.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Madam Secretary, let's see if
9 we can't get them in here.
10 SECRETARY BLANTON: Quorum call. Quorum call.
11 All commissioners indicate your presence. All
12 commissioners indicate your presence. Quorum call.
13 Quorum call. All commissioners indicate your
14 presence.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're missing six
16 members that were here. Commissioner Thompson is
17 here, he's not signed in. He is now. Okay. He tells
18 me we have a few minutes. They are putting it in
19 form. Commissioner Mathis hasn't signed back in. And
20 Commissioner Brochin, here he is.
21 (Pause.)
22 What we're waiting on is the staff to give us the
23 final print so everybody will have it.
24 (Pause.)
25 All right. Let's come to order. All right.
165
1 While we're getting these ready to pass out, let me
2 have your attention. What we're going to do is we're
3 going to take these up revision by revision. We're
4 going to deal with them in the order that we have.
5 And we're going to vote on each revision in order. If
6 you want to take out one of the provisions for a
7 specific vote, you have to move to do that, is that
8 right, Commissioner Barkdull? Maybe you can explain
9 it and then I'll make sure it's right.
10 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It's my understanding if
11 they want to move one, they make the proper motion and
12 then it will take 22 votes to do it.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But if we vote on the
14 revision without anybody making any motions if it gets
15 22 votes, that's the end of that particular revision;
16 is that right?
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir. That should
18 constitute the final vote of that revision if there
19 are no changes in it.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And there can be no future
21 vote of any kind; is that right?
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That's my understanding
23 of what we recommended this morning.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So there won't be any
25 carryover motions to reconsider or any of those
166
1 things; is that right? Is that everybody's
2 understanding? Commissioner Scott.
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: And if it fails?
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's dead.
5 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: But -- do you have a but to
6 that?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, if it's a group it
8 doesn't fail. If the group doesn't pass then they
9 break into single issues, that's the rule. On the
10 other hand, what I meant to say was, that an
11 individual proposal as opposed to a revision, if it's
12 singled out and voted on by virtue of a, I guess it
13 would be a motion to amend the group, would it not?
14 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Then that would be an
16 entirely different matter.
17 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: If it's a motion to pull
18 it out and it passes, it would be freestanding unless
19 it was coupled with something else.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: How do they vote on an
21 individual proposal to vote against it?
22 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: They move to strike it.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Move to strike it. Okay.
24 That was my understanding, you had to make a motion.
25 And the motion to strike does what?
167
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Requires 22 votes to
2 strike it. It's my understanding it would take 22
3 votes to strike it. That doesn't pass it. I mean,
4 still, even if you didn't strike it, it would still
5 take 22 affirmative votes to pass it.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So what would happen is, if
7 you moved it out of the revision that we were
8 considering, like Revision 1, take an example, it's
9 got four proposals and you wanted to take a separate
10 vote on one of them, say the one, the last one, 1O2,
11 how would you do that?
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: You could do it in
13 several different ways. If you want to try to kill
14 it, you could move to strike the whole proposal. If
15 you want to pull it out separately, you could move to
16 pull it out of the package and have it stand
17 freestanding.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And then if it's
19 freestanding, then you have to vote on it and get 22
20 votes.
21 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Correct.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: So if you wanted to make it
23 have an affirmative duty on the person that wanted to
24 pass it, you would pull it out and make it
25 freestanding; is that right?
168
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I know what the vote
2 would be. I don't know what the motive of a person
3 would be.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Well, let's try
5 it. We may not get any of those because one of the
6 more controversial ones is already freestanding, most
7 of them.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I think Commissioner
9 Langley has got a point.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley.
11 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
12 It's my understanding if a package fails that each
13 component would have to pass, not that they would
14 automatically be passed and go on.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's right.
16 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Well, that's not what you
17 said earlier. You said they'd all go forward. They
18 don't unless they each get 22 votes. And there was
19 one other caveat. If you remember, Commissioner
20 Rundle has told some of us that in the event the
21 Legislature speaks to the gun problem that we might
22 want to withdraw one of our amendments. So I assume
23 at any time between now and May 5th we could actually
24 come in and withdraw one.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Only with unanimous consent.
169
1 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Unanimous consent?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Am I right, Commissioner
3 Barkdull? If we pass a proposal and somebody comes
4 along on our May meeting, in order to pull it out,
5 requires -- says, "I want to pull it out," requires
6 unanimous consent?
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: It's a change in the
8 rules.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It would be a two-thirds'
10 vote or unanimous consent. Okay. Two-thirds.
11 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Two-thirds. I may have
12 misunderstood an inquiry from Commissioner Langley.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Here's what he said. If you
14 defeat Revision 1 and each one of these becomes
15 freestanding, and nobody makes a motion to put, say,
16 three of them in a revision and that passed, if that's
17 true, then we would vote on that revision; is that
18 right?
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, if we vote
20 negatively on Revision 1 and they all become
21 freestanding then it seems to me they would all be
22 subject to an affirmative vote of 22 votes.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's true. But at the same
24 time, somebody could make a motion to put three of
25 them and leave one of them out, put three of them into
170
1 a revision, same thing. And if that got 22 votes then
2 that would be the end of that one.
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: That would be a new
4 grouping.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Then we would vote on the
6 single one that was left and it would require 22
7 votes.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's what you meant, wasn't
10 it, Commissioner Langley?
11 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: (Nods affirmatively.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Commissioner Connor.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I'm not sure this is the
14 same thing, just for clarification and as an example,
15 on 167. We've had a number of members during the
16 recess who said, Now, if the Legislature goes through
17 and closes the gun show loophole, I'm willing to come
18 back and withdraw 167. I'd like to know if I can,
19 Mr. Chairman, what threshold --
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Two-thirds vote.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Two-thirds. Okay.
22 Twenty-five votes.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Or unanimous consent.
24 Commissioner Langley.
25 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: How do we get there from
171
1 here? Are you going to call us in?
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No. No, we can do it on the
3 last day. We can't do anything on the last day other
4 than just meet and approve things generally. It takes
5 a two-thirds vote to undo anything.
6 (Off-the-record comment.)
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's right. There is no
8 reconsideration. When we get through here today,
9 that's the end of the game. At the end of the day,
10 we're through voting. If you lose, you lose. If you
11 win, you win. And if somebody wants to withdraw one
12 at our last meeting, it takes a two-thirds' vote of
13 the commission; is that right? I want to make sure
14 that's clear in the record that that's the case.
15 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Yes, sir. And it's my
16 understanding from the Secretary that's 25 votes.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's right. It would be 25
18 votes required to do what you ask. Now, let's get to
19 where we can do some of that and where we can finish
20 today and we'll be on our way. The first thing to
21 come up is revision -- Commissioner Evans.
22 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Just a question on that. Is
23 it two-thirds of the commission whether they're here
24 or not?
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. Twenty-five
172
1 votes just like it's 22 votes.
2 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Okay.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, it's 25 votes. The Rules
4 Chairman just told me that so I'm going to stay with
5 it. We're not going to rewrite them again. Look, if
6 she wants to withdraw it, who in the world is going to
7 object? To waive the rules, it's two-thirds of the
8 members, that's 25 votes. And that's exactly what we
9 would be doing. All right, let's get on with this.
10 All right. We go to Revision No. 1 and read the
11 title of each one of the proposals that are in that
12 provision. Commissioner Barkdull.
13 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Inquiry of the Chair and
14 really of the Style and Drafting Committee. Was there
15 anything to be handed out or distributed to the
16 commission after the meeting that they just had?
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's what we've been
18 waiting on.
19 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I don't see it on my
20 desk, that's the reason why I ask.
21 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, you might want to look.
22 They told me they passed it out. I have it right
23 here. It's Revision No. 1. Everybody got it?
24 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Are they going to pass
25 them out as we come to them?
173
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Apparently so.
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I've got Revision 1.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Revision No. 1, read the
4 title of each proposal.
5 READING CLERK: Revision 1, Conservation of
6 Natural Resources and Creation of Fish and Wildlife
7 Conservation Commission.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now read the next
9 one.
10 READING CLERK: Revision 2, Public Education of
11 Children.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, no. There is one in each
13 one of these. I wanted it for each one so we'd know
14 what we're voting on. I'll read it. What we're
15 voting on is Revision No. 1 which includes all of
16 these proposals. I wanted her to read this. The
17 first one she read is, Providing that it is the policy
18 of the state to conserve natural resources and scenic
19 beauty for the health and welfare of its citizens for
20 future generations; providing for provisions to be
21 made by law to protect future generations.
22 The next one is committee constitute for No. 45,
23 then read that. Committee substitute for 64 and then
24 we read that. Okay. Otherwise, we can't vote on the
25 revision.
174
1 Commissioner Mills.
2 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman --
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You're supposed to give us
4 this in some form where we could work with it.
5 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, what you
6 could do is you could vote on this revision as it was
7 voted on this morning to be combined and one vote up
8 or down.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. But we need to know
10 what we're voting on.
11 COMMISSIONER MILLS: I take it that's what has
12 been passed out.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No. All right. Is
14 everything in here, Revision 1? All right. We're
15 going to vote on Revision 1 which includes all of
16 those things that we passed out. And she read the
17 title language to Revision 1 which is sufficient to
18 identify it. Does everybody understand where we are?
19 All right. Is there any debate on Revision 1 under
20 the rule of three minutes, three minutes? That's what
21 we adopted when we started.
22 Commissioner Henderson.
23 COMMISSIONER HENDERSON: I'll do this in one
24 minute. When we've considered and reconsidered
25 components of this throughout the day and I did not
175
1 want us to leave this on sour note.
2 The conservation community of this state that
3 strongly supports this proposal is now before you. It
4 is of historic dimension. And what it will do, I
5 believe, it will have strong, very strong public
6 support and commend it to you. And I would thank so
7 many of you who have worked on various parts of this
8 to make this the strong proposal that it is. This one
9 is a winner.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further
11 debate on Revision No. 1? Unlock the machine and
12 let's vote.
13 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and record
15 the vote.
16 READING CLERK: Thirty-four yeas, two nays,
17 Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you've adopted
19 Revision 1 to go on the ballot. Finally, we've done
20 something. Now, we'll go to Revision 2.
21 READING CLERK: Revision 2, Public Education of
22 Children.
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
24 Mills, do you move Revision 2 as it's been revised?
25 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This
176
1 incorporates the amendments from this morning and the
2 title was revised to conform with that amendment.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is there any
4 debate or discussion on amendment -- Revision 2?
5 Commissioner Langley.
6 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: Commissioners, I feel
7 convinced that the whole purpose of this is to give an
8 edge to those suits that have been filed in the past
9 against the Legislature concerning adequate funding of
10 the educational system in this state. I think you're
11 opening the wallet of the taxpayer to unlimited
12 expenditures that should be legislative matters.
13 That, I think, is the intent of it and I think that's
14 what it does and I don't think that's responsible.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I would
17 just briefly close in saying that education is the
18 most important issue to the people of this state.
19 This simply defines the duty of this state to its
20 children and that our paramount duty is to provide a
21 public education. That education should be adequate.
22 And to be adequate, it has to be safe, secure. I
23 heard the other day about kids that need metal
24 detectors in the third grade and I suspect that
25 wouldn't be sufficient. And it's my belief that the
177
1 result of this would be -- the Legislature and all
2 public officials being more responsible about public
3 education. I just move it.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Any further debate or
5 discussion? If not, unlock the machine and we'll
6 vote. This is Revision 2 on education.
7 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
9 the vote.
10 READING CLERK: Twenty-eight yeas, eight nays,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Move to Revision 3.
13 READING CLERK: Revision 3, Selection of Judges
14 and Funding of State Courts.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Have we passed
16 that out? It's being passed out. Now, is there
17 any -- Commissioner Mills, do you want to present this
18 one? No. 3 dealing with three things, the --
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this includes
20 the proposal we discussed this morning which is the
21 selection process optional through local elections.
22 The funding of Article V, which I think the salient
23 point is, it shifts some of the funding
24 responsibilities to the state thereby decreasing the
25 responsibilities and obligation of local property
178
1 taxpayers. And the third issue simply deals with the
2 Judicial Qualifications Commission which I believe is,
3 basically, a technical amendment.
4 So overall, this deals with the major issues of
5 selection of judges through a local option election
6 process and the funding of the judicial system.
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is there any
8 further discussion on No. 3 which has been explained
9 by the chairman of Style and Drafting? If not, open
10 the machine and we'll vote.
11 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
13 the vote.
14 READING CLERK: Thirty-one yeas, five nays,
15 Mr. Chairman.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you've adopted
17 Revision 3. All right. Revision 4.
18 READING CLERK: Revision 4, Restructuring the
19 state Cabinet.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
21 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this is the
22 single proposal for the -- streamlining the state
23 Cabinet which would then include the elected cabinet
24 including the Attorney General, the Agriculture
25 Commissioner, and the chief financial officer. It
179
1 also includes the proposal on creating an education
2 commission which would appoint the education
3 commissioner.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Is there any
5 further discussion on this? If not, get ready to
6 vote. Unlock the machine and let's vote. (Pause.)
7 Somebody hasn't voted. Lock the machine and announce
8 the vote.
9 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
10 READING CLERK: Twenty-five yeas, 11 nays,
11 Mr. Chairman.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote you've adopted
13 it. No. 5 hasn't been completely drafted. We'll go
14 to No. 6 and come back to No. 5.
15 READING CLERK: Revision 6, Ballot Access, Public
16 Campaign Financing, and Election Process Revisions.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. This is the
18 elections package. Commissioner Mills.
19 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, these are
20 packaged -- several of these made it easier for voters
21 to have the ability to vote in primary elections, made
22 it easier for minority parties to have access to the
23 ballot. There is the procedural change that permits
24 candidates for governor to run primary elections
25 without lieutenant governor and the public campaign
180
1 financing issue.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any debate?
3 Commissioner Langley.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: I'm playing noseguard
5 again, but we have another chance here to separate out
6 some of these issues and possibly save some of these
7 things that really need to be done. If we defeat this
8 whole package, we can come back and either pass them
9 individually or repackage them. But I'm telling you,
10 the crossover primary and the nonpartisan school
11 boards are going to kill this amendment and the good
12 things with it.
13 But, you know, if that's what you want to do,
14 maybe that's good logic too. But I'd urge you not to
15 pass it as it is and come back and take them up
16 individually, possibly repackage those truly
17 noncontroversial ones and then let the controversial
18 ones fly on their own.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody else want to be heard
20 on this? Commissioner Connor.
21 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Is it appropriate to make a
22 motion to segment at this point or not, Mr. Chairman?
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: You can make whatever motion
24 you desire to make.
25 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I'd like to move to segment
181
1 out the committee substitute for Proposal 79, ballot
2 access. And my rationale, very simply, is I don't
3 think there is any proposal that has enjoyed a broader
4 base of support for which historically we've seen a
5 greater injustice and I think we would do well to
6 segment that out and give a greater ballot access and
7 the opportunity to increase voter participation in
8 this state and I encourage you to pull that out.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There is a motion
10 which would add another revision, I guess ultimately,
11 correct?
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, his motion is
13 to amend out a proposal to be voted on separately.
14 And I would understand that would take 22 votes.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It takes 22 votes to move
16 this motion. Any further discussion on the motion?
17 If you want to leave it as it is, you vote no on this
18 motion to take it out. If you want to move it out you
19 vote yes.
20 All right. Unlock the machine and let's vote on
21 the motion.
22 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
23 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
24 the vote.
25 READING CLERK: Fifteen yeas, 20 nays,
182
1 Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Amendment fails. We now go
3 to Revision No. 6 which includes those items that have
4 been discussed.
5 (Off-the-record comment.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I know that, that's what I'm
7 talking about. It's Revision 6, excuse me. We're
8 going right back to where we were. We're going to
9 vote on Revision 6. Unlock the machine and let's vote
10 to put the Revision 6 on the ballot.
11 Everybody hasn't voted. Two people haven't
12 voted, three. Who hasn't voted? There we go. All
13 right. Lock the machine and announce the vote.
14 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
15 READING CLERK: Twenty-four yeas, 12 nays,
16 Mr. Chairman.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you've placed
18 Revision 6 on the ballot. All right. We now have for
19 your consideration No. 5A which is just the
20 Reapportionment Commission.
21 READING CLERK: Revision 5A, Creates Appointed
22 Reapportionment and Redistricting Commission to
23 Establish Voting Districts.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
25 Scott. All right. You were up first, go ahead.
183
1 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: It's her proposal.
2 Commissioners, I'm not going to go back through
3 all the things about having people with the chance to
4 have a seat at the table about accountability and
5 about the communities of interest and the familiarity
6 of the Legislature with it. Everybody has heard that
7 and some of you think this is a good idea and some
8 think that it isn't. Those that think it's a good
9 idea think of it as a nonpolitical sort of independent
10 way to do something.
11 And what I would like to say to you, and the
12 first point is, this is not the case. If you could
13 see what's happened, there's going to be eight
14 Republicans and eight Democrats. This is not
15 independent like by a court, for example. And what
16 are they going to do? Are they are going to be --
17 they're going to be based on the minority party,
18 whichever party, is going to say, We've got to have
19 eight that's going to stand up because we get a
20 50 percent shot. And the other parties say, We've got
21 to guard against that. That's the first point.
22 The other point that I would like to reemphasize
23 for you, I have not been articulate on this, is the
24 minority districts. This proposal, by its language,
25 specifically says that minority districts' language
184
1 and racial groups will not be diluted and then it
2 says, Except to meet this requirement, the commission
3 shall consider compact territory, divisions of
4 communities to be avoided and counties are not to be
5 divided and the numbers of municipalities.
6 Under those circumstances, this is exactly, not
7 just what you do, and that gets judged by the courts
8 in a legislative reapportionment. And which, by the
9 way, they defer to the Legislature and have
10 consistently in these cases. That sets out the
11 minority district as a factor that could not be
12 compromised. And under those circumstances, we would
13 not have won the Hardwik (phonetic) case. It will put
14 us in the category of North Carolina and Texas and
15 other states that have been thrown out. So I would
16 urge you not to adopt this proposal.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
18 Evans-Jones.
19 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: Go ahead.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Wetherington
21 first.
22 COMMISSIONER WETHERINGTON: I didn't want to
23 respond to the constitutional point. I did today
24 speak with Professor William Van Alstyne at Duke
25 University when Commissioner Scott raised the issue of
185
1 the constitutional matter. As you know, Professor Van
2 Alstyne is one of the leading constitutional scholars
3 in America.
4 In his view, although he did not have the time to
5 study, he's quite familiar with the cases in this
6 field, was that this does not offend the cases out
7 there with respect to the Constitution. Particularly
8 with the construction which I think is proper and that
9 is that you cannot intentionally design districts to
10 dilute the voting power, racial or language
11 minorities.
12 I don't think that if anybody wants to vote
13 against it, for other reasons, you may do so. But I
14 don't think that that is a legitimate concern with
15 respect to this. I think it's constitutional and I've
16 checked it out with the person that I think is the
17 most eminent constitutional scholar in the country.
18 On the second point, I credit the goodwill and
19 thoughtful comments of Commissioner Scott and others
20 and he's got good points. I think the Legislature is
21 pretty good in the state of Florida. But assuming
22 they are well motivated and good, and I do make that
23 assumption, I think they also would be well motivated
24 and good in the people that they try to appoint for
25 the commission.
186
1 They are not going to just appoint people who are
2 sent in as attack dogs. I assume they're going to
3 appoint people that are going to try to do the job in
4 the important and high-minded way in which the job
5 should be done, that they would be responsible in
6 their appointments as they would be in their
7 decision-making process.
8 The thing that convinces me, frankly, is the
9 apparent -- or the appearance of the conflict of
10 interest that's involved and has been involved in this
11 area. And I think that that appearance is
12 substantially diminished by the existence of the
13 independent panel. That, to me, is the strongest
14 point in its favor although I have great respect, I
15 cannot discount these arguments that have been made by
16 Commissioner Scott, they are good points.
17 On balance, the thing that convinces me is in
18 this very important field, the need for that removed
19 additional level of what I think would be the
20 avoidance of a conflict of interest. Those whose jobs
21 might be affected are not going to be the ones that
22 are going to be directly making the decision. And
23 it's for that reason that I think on balance, although
24 I think it's a -- I think it's an arguable point -- on
25 balance, I think the proposal is proper and I intent
187
1 to support it and I think we should adopt it.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Langley as on
3 opponent.
4 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: You know, I don't believe
5 that you're taking politics out of reapportionment.
6 You don't think that when the House speaker, be he
7 Republican or Democrat, picks his delegate that he's
8 going to have a litmus test for them as to what they
9 better do on that commission?
10 You know we just voted for a proposal in No. 6
11 that says we're going to make it easier for minority
12 parties to get on the ballot. We're going to allow
13 nonpartisan school board elections and we're going to
14 allow crossovers in primaries. That's all going in
15 one direction and now you want to say, We're going to
16 chisel them into the stone of the state Constitution
17 that the Democrats and Republicans will reapportion
18 this state for the next 20 years. That's totally
19 inconsistent with what you just did.
20 I mean, it doesn't make sense. You know the
21 difference? Now the Speaker of the House and the
22 President of the Senate and the minority leader in
23 each House can make these appointments, can make these
24 people pass their litmus test and not answer to
25 anybody. Currently, they have to go home and answer.
188
1 In our county, one of our representatives divided
2 our county into seven legislative districts and he's
3 paying the price for it because he shouldn't have done
4 that to our county. But if this were some
5 commissioner, as we are, we won't have to answer to
6 anybody when we go home and neither would this
7 commission. You're taking away the responsibility and
8 the accountability of the people who are given this
9 very important authority. And let's leave it to our
10 elected representatives and throw them out if you
11 don't like them.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Ford-Coates.
13 COMMISSIONER FORD-COATES: Commissioners, I would
14 suggest to you that just the opposite is true of what
15 Commissioner Langley just said. If there are problems
16 with people feeling political pressure who are
17 elected, then I think that too often they give into
18 that political pressure. But I have seen time and
19 time again in this appointed commission instances of
20 people standing up regardless of political pressure
21 and voting the way that they felt was right.
22 I have never been prouder of this commission than
23 I was as I read the newspaper articles this last week
24 about people who, no matter what they were told, voted
25 what they felt was right. That's what an appointed
189
1 commission can do because there is nothing riding on
2 it. There is no speakership riding on how you vote.
3 There's no people that you have to promise a favor to
4 when you're in an appointed position in this type of
5 legislative body making these kinds of decisions in
6 the sunshine.
7 I would suggest to you that if this proposal does
8 not pass today as it did pass last Tuesday we make a
9 very bad comment about the process we've been involved
10 in which to this point has been based on one thing
11 only, what we truly believe to be the right thing to
12 do.
13 This is a good proposal, we've heard it argued
14 time and time again. It is time that we give it to
15 the public to vote on and let them decide. Make no
16 mistake about it, we are not making the decisions on
17 which districts will be drawn. The public will decide
18 whether or not this is the appropriate way and I would
19 urge you strongly to vote for this good provision.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. We're going to
21 have one more opponent, Commissioner Mathis. And one
22 more to close, proponent, which will be Commissioner
23 Evans-Jones. Time has been used. Commissioner
24 Mathis.
25 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: I sincerely believe with
190
1 all my heart that this provision is a throwback to
2 reconstruction. It takes the power of the electorate
3 away from the people and concentrates it into a body
4 that is not answerable to the people for the most
5 representative branch of government that we have and
6 that's the legislative branch. I cannot support this
7 in all conscience.
8 The Legislature is the most diverse
9 representative of the 50 million people that are in
10 the state of Florida. It is their duty to decide what
11 their district lines will be. Anything less
12 circumvents the will of the people and postures it in
13 an elite, small group that don't answer to anyone and
14 I cannot support that.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Evans-Jones to
16 close.
17 COMMISSIONER EVANS-JONES: Commissioners, I want
18 to plead with you to vote for this very good, good
19 government bill that we're voting on today, this
20 proposal. Certainly it has been, if you'll pardon me,
21 cussed and discussed by a great many people here in
22 the state of Florida. But I think the important thing
23 is it certainly is not going to dilute any of the
24 minority strength, it can't. I think that's a failed
25 argument. There is no way that that can happen
191
1 because we have the protection of the Minority Voting
2 Act and those things have to be done first before
3 anything else can be done.
4 And someone has said that you don't have anybody
5 to answer to, this commission. Well I say for the
6 first time you would have somebody to answer to and
7 that's the general public because this has got to be
8 done in the sunshine. It currently and always will be
9 done in the shade if the Legislature continues to do
10 this and I think that's really important.
11 People in the state of Florida don't have a high
12 regard for politicians in general. And I think this
13 would really bring back a lot of confidence in us, as
14 commissioners, to be able to say, We know that the
15 Legislature can't do that. And so therefore, we, as a
16 commission, we're not here to represent the Republican
17 party and we are not here to represent the Democrat
18 party. I remind you, Commissioners, that you are here
19 to represent the citizens of Florida and this is truly
20 the key to this proposal. That's our responsibility.
21 And I know there has been an enormous amount of
22 pressure on many of you. But I have the confidence in
23 each of you to be able to believe that you're going to
24 do what you really feel in your heart is the proper
25 thing. During a reapportionment session, I can assure
192
1 you, that very little gets done in the Legislature. I
2 have been there when they have done the
3 reapportionment and it definitely takes a back seat.
4 What happens, which is so obvious is, it's
5 protection of incumbents and it's not really fair. It
6 will be fair if you have an equal number of the other
7 party. And I don't think that it matters. We've said
8 that you may have an independent there, that's fine.
9 They would vote with the party other than the Speaker
10 or the President of the Senate.
11 Commissioners, this is certainly an issue that I
12 think deserves your full attention. I thought that we
13 had gotten the 22 votes and that we were going to be
14 riding all right today. And I understand some of the
15 concern. And I do think that you have to do what's
16 right and I think that was the right thing to do, to
17 have a vote again. And I just urge you to please,
18 please, vote yes.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Open the machine
20 and let's vote.
21 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Everybody voted? Lock the
23 machine and announce the voted.
24 READING CLERK: Twenty yeas, 15 nays,
25 Mr. Chairman.
193
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you've defeated
2 this. Proposal No. 155, which is -- excuse me,
3 Revision 5A it is now -- 5B, excuse me.
4 READING CLERK: Revision 5B. Mandate
5 Single-Member Legislative Districts.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
7 Scott.
8 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: It does just that, it puts
9 in the Constitution single-member districts. Right
10 now you can have multimember or single-member and
11 that's what this proposal does. It passed fairly
12 overwhelmingly before and it's here again.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Brochin.
14 COMMISSIONER BROCHIN: Question of Commissioner
15 Scott. Is this proposal -- can this be put with some
16 other group or is it your thought that this should
17 stand alone in light of the fact that reapportionment
18 has failed? It seems like a proposal that ought to go
19 somewhere else rather than be standing by itself.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Do you want to put it in the
21 elections' package? He asked you a question.
22 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Look, when I filed this, I
23 had no idea we were going to have such a huge debate
24 on this whole subject matter. I mean, I would
25 withdraw it if the commission at this point doesn't
194
1 have any objection.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that probably --
3 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: I mean, I'm for
4 single-member districts.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We have them now. All right.
6 He moves to withdraw it.
7 COMMISSIONER SCOTT: Well, wait just a minute. I
8 don't want to withdraw it. I'm just going to leave it
9 for the vote of the commission and then we'll consider
10 a grouping that could even go -- I don't know what
11 you're going to do with it. It could go in technical
12 easily --
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Ready to vote? Open the
14 machine and let's vote.
15 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
17 the vote.
18 READING CLERK: Nineteen yeas, 14 nays,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It fails. Now we move to
21 Revision No. 7.
22 READING CLERK: Revision 7, Local and Municipal
23 Property Tax Exemptions and Citizen Access to Local
24 Officials.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Who wants to
195
1 present this? Commissioner Barkdull?
2 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: This is on 5B, Mr.
3 Chairman, there was a motion --
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, it wasn't. It was a vote
5 on the revision. There was no motion. You
6 misunderstood. There was no motion, it was a vote on
7 the revision.
8 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Inquiry of the Chair.
9 Did the proposal pass?
10 MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it failed. I just announced
11 that. Commissioner Mills.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, this is the
13 proposal that was described this morning. It includes
14 a series of issues dealing with local government. One
15 dealing with access to public officials by citizens
16 and three dealing with property tax exemptions.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Revision 7.
18 Anybody want to address Revision 7? I think we've
19 debated these a lot. If not, unlock the machine and
20 let's vote.
21 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? Lock
23 the machine and announce the vote.
24 READING CLERK: Twenty-seven yeas, seven nays,
25 Mr. Chairman.
196
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. By your vote you
2 have adopted Revision 7. Now we go to Revision 8.
3 READING CLERK: Revision 8, Firearms Purchase:
4 Local Option for Waiting Period and Criminal Records
5 Check.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody want to
7 be heard on No. 8? Commissioner Rundle.
8 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Commissioners, I want to
9 thank you in advance for putting what I think is
10 really one of the most important public safety issues
11 and lifesaving issues before the people and letting
12 them vote on this. As you do this, you should feel
13 good because I believe when you press this yes button
14 today you will save a life and I thank you for that.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody else want to be heard
16 on this? Commissioner Barton.
17 COMMISSIONER BARTON: Yes, I'd just like to raise
18 not only a question but a comment as well. We
19 currently have a state law addressing this issue and
20 in that state law there is a three-day waiting period.
21 And in that state law the consequences of violating
22 this issue is a felony.
23 The proposal that we're looking at, which would
24 be a local option at the county level, but the
25 consequences of the crime is a misdemeanor. And I'm
197
1 still confused as to why we're voting to put in a
2 local option that is less than the state option
3 currently is. And I intend to continue to vote
4 against it until that question is answered.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor.
6 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Ladies and gentlemen, I
7 urge you to oppose this proposal. We've received a
8 letter from the law enforcement group that indicates
9 that they oppose the proposal. We've received letters
10 from gun owner groups that indicate that they oppose
11 the proposal. The STOP group who wants to see
12 offenders do more time, not less time, will oppose the
13 proposal. This proposal will engender more opposition
14 than any other single proposal on the ballot. I urge
15 you to vote against it.
16 The Legislature is now considering and did
17 consider this afternoon in the Senate Criminal Justice
18 Committee, a proposal that would close the gun show
19 loophole and that would make it a felony offense to
20 violate that. That proposal has the support of the
21 National Rifle Association, of the Unified Sportsmen
22 of America, and has, I would submit to you, a
23 broad-based support within the Legislature.
24 We should not go backwards, to the extent that
25 this proposes a public safety hazard, we should make
198
1 the criminals do the time by making sure that the
2 offense is a felony, not a misdemeanor. This is a
3 wash, the proposal does nothing on its face, nothing
4 on its face to close the gun show loophole. It'll do
5 everything to have the effect of torpedoing our
6 proposals in the coming election, and I urge you to
7 vote no on the coming proposal.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Smith.
9 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
10 rise as a proponent of the proposal, as I have
11 throughout the process. I too want to thank those of
12 you who support this proposal because I really believe
13 that we are either going to save lives or save people
14 from becoming victims. I didn't join this commission
15 to be a shrinking violet, afraid of the fact that
16 something is controversial. As a matter of fact, the
17 noncontroversial items are in Section 10 and we are
18 not in Section 10 right now, so the fact that it may
19 be controversial, does not give me pause, number one.
20 And number two, I think that people are
21 intelligent enough to know that this is a freestanding
22 proposal and the fact that they may vote against this
23 proposal will not have any affect on the other
24 proposals. With regard to the very important question
25 that Commissioner Barton asked, with regard to the
199
1 laws as they apply now, in terms of the loophole,
2 there are, right now, no penalty, no criminal penalty
3 for the loophole. The reason that there's no penalty
4 is because it is a loophole, so you can't criminalize
5 it because it's like a hole in the donut.
6 So what's happening now is that we are trying to
7 at least have some type of penalty that can be imposed
8 by closing the loophole. Once we close the loophole
9 and make sure that the gun shows have the same laws as
10 the gun stores, then you can impose a penalty. I
11 would prefer, as I am sure you would, and Commissioner
12 Connor does, to have felony penalties with regard to
13 these, but right now there's absolutely no penalty at
14 all.
15 Commissioner Connor, we have a ruling from the
16 Chair that if in fact the gun loophole is closed by
17 the Legislature, by a vote of 25 of us, we can come
18 back and say, the loophole has been closed, we can
19 move forward, we don't need a constitutional
20 amendment. But right now the law is pretty clear
21 that, unless we do this, and everybody in here is
22 against crime. Think about this now, in our
23 community, unless we do this, whether it is the black
24 Widow or Spino or Kaczynski or some crazy person can
25 walk into a place and buy a rifle and go out and shoot
200
1 people without a three-day check. We don't want that
2 to happen.
3 I am a criminal defense lawyer, but first and
4 foremost, I am a citizen, I am a father. And I ask
5 you and I implore you to vote yes. We might not, this
6 might not be a 100 percent closure of the loophole,
7 but it sure will somewhat cut off the access to guns
8 by criminals. Responsible gun owners will always have
9 access to arms, and I will fight to the death for
10 that, as I did in Vietnam. Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Kogan.
12 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: I just rise to address the
13 issue of whether or not this particular proposal will
14 in fact bring out a group that's going to vote
15 everything down, to the contrary as I understand it.
16 And Commissioner Rundle can correct me if I'm wrong,
17 that the last time that we had a similar proposal to
18 this on the ballot in this state, 84 percent of the
19 voters approved it. Is that correct, Commissioner
20 Rundle?
21 Well, I submit to you all, if 84 percent of the
22 voters approved this the last time, I'm sure you are
23 not going to have to worry about them coming out to
24 vote down this proposal and every other proposal. I
25 submit to you that it is an argument that's not valid
201
1 and should be ignored by all of you. And I rise as a
2 proponent for this proposal.
3 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Sundberg.
4 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Commissioner Connor for a
5 question.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Connor, yield?
7 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes.
8 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Is the, to your
9 knowledge, is the legislation currently under
10 consideration by the Legislature similar to the
11 amendment which you proposed?
12 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It's identical.
13 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
15 Rundle to close.
16 COMMISSIONER RUNDLE: Commissioner Sundberg, I'm
17 glad you asked that question, because I want to make
18 sure that I'm just as forward with all of you as
19 possible. There are two different bills that are
20 presently pending in the Legislature. One is in the
21 House and one is in the Senate. The one in the Senate
22 is the one, as I understand it, that Commissioner
23 Connor presented to you.
24 You already know that I deeply believe, as many
25 others do, that that does not solve the problem. So I
202
1 want to be very careful that when we discuss this, and
2 when we say that we are going to come back maybe on
3 May 4th and we may, as a commission, if it is the will
4 of this commission to withdraw it, that will be your
5 decision, but it must be based on the facts, in my
6 opinion, that the problem in fact is solved by the
7 legislation.
8 So now they have a few months to see if they can
9 work that language out. If they do, we can then
10 consider it on May 4th. But right now, I'm not real
11 optimistic about the language that I see going to the
12 Senate. Maybe the House bill will prevail, that
13 remains to be seen.
14 But that aside, you have already accomplished
15 something by making them think about it, you have
16 already accomplished something by making the
17 Legislature realize that there's a problem. Now, all
18 you are doing is taking it to the people and allowing
19 them the ability to save a life in their community. I
20 cannot be more eloquent than my friend Commissioner
21 Smith, but I can tell you this, that where I live and
22 the victims that I see and the deaths and the pain
23 that I see is caused in large part by firearms that
24 are used by criminals, bad nasty people.
25 And if this helps close one source off, close one
203
1 door for those criminals to have access to firearms,
2 then we have got to do this. Please, I urge you,
3 press this green button, I guarantee you, you will
4 probably save at least one life. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: She's closed, Commissioner
6 Langley.
7 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: For a question,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't think so. All right,
10 open the machine and let's vote.
11 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
13 the vote.
14 READING CLERK: Twenty-three yeas, 12 nays,
15 Mr. Chairman.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you have placed
17 this on the ballot. We go to Revision No. 9.
18 READING CLERK: Revision 9A, basic rights.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And that includes the three
20 that are remaining and we removed and separated out
21 Proposal 187; isn't that right, Commissioner Mills?
22 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, that
23 includes the male and female alike phrase, the
24 national origin issue, and physical disability
25 amendment.
204
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Does anybody want
2 to speak to this? If not, unlock the machine and
3 we'll vote. Excuse me, whoa, back it up. You want to
4 speak? You do not. All right. Leave it open,
5 everybody vote.
6 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Lock the machine and announce
8 the vote.
9 READING CLERK: Twenty-seven yeas, 7 nays,
10 Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: By your vote, you send this
12 to the ballot. The next proposal is Revision 9, I
13 guess it is.
14 READING CLERK: Revision 9(b), Protection of
15 Religious Freedom.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
17 Connor, this is your proposal.
18 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Connor, on
19 Page 1, Line 19, delete the words, state board.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. There's an
21 amendment by Commissioner Connor. Do you want to
22 explain the amendment?
23 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Yes, that proposal, that
24 amendment is a conforming amendment. You will recall
25 at the very beginning, we changed the words, the state
205
1 or any political subdivision to a governmental entity,
2 and inadvertently, we carried that state language
3 forward and it should just be, governmental entity, so
4 that is just a conforming amendment, Mr. Chairman.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does everybody understand,
6 this is a technical amendment making his previous
7 amendment, correct? All in favor, say aye. Opposed?
8 (Verbal vote taken.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries. Now, we are on
10 the revision as amended, it is Revision 9,
11 Commissioner Connor, you have the floor.
12 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
13 Ladies and gentlemen, I'll tell you that it's with the
14 great test sense of inadequacy that I rise to speak on
15 what I think is the single most important issue before
16 this body and that is whether or not we will accord
17 the great test measure of protection to religious
18 liberty of any of the freedoms that we enjoy under the
19 Constitution.
20 What could be more precious than preserving the
21 free exercise of religion? Our country was founded
22 because of religious persecution, people who were
23 seeking the right to freely worship in accordance with
24 the dictates of their consciences braved the notion to
25 come to a new world and endure all of the hardships
206
1 associated with that in order that they might freely
2 exercise their religious consciences.
3 Some of you have suggested that if we tinker with
4 the language, the sky may fall. In truth, ladies and
5 gentlemen, from the beginning of the republic until
6 1990, the standard that you have before you was the
7 prevailing standard with respect to the protection of
8 religious liberty, and the sky did not fall and the
9 Republic did not flounder. But when the Supreme Court
10 of the United States changed its standard of review,
11 many people felt that the sky did fall, and so, as a
12 consequence, the broadest array of religious beliefs
13 in the history of the entire country came together
14 with one voice and one proposal, the Religious Freedom
15 Restoration Act, and said of all of our cherished
16 freedoms, we must act to protect religious liberty by
17 requiring strict scrutiny and the compelling interest
18 standard before a governmental entity may encroach
19 upon that liberty.
20 Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Native
21 Americans who scarcely can get together on anything
22 spoke with one voice on that issue. This will affect
23 the life, the lives of 14 million people in the state
24 of Florida in a positive way, and it'll demonstrate to
25 you that we honor the sacrifice of brave men and women
207
1 who have come before us and who have forfeited their
2 lives on the field of battle to protect this liberty.
3 I implore you, I implore you to please support this
4 proposal. Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Anybody else want to be
6 heard? Commissioner Kogan.
7 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: Yes, I rise in opposition.
8 This is just a rehash of what we went through the last
9 time, as you recall. I never find that Commissioner
10 Connor is ever unable to express his will and his
11 desire to everybody. You underestimate yourself,
12 Commissioner Connor, you are very able to do that.
13 But what I'm telling you all, as I said before, I have
14 seen no need for this particular amendment to our
15 Constitution. We have survived very well under the
16 United States Constitution and have survived very well
17 under the Florida Constitution when we are dealing
18 with religious liberties.
19 As I recall the last time that this issue came
20 up, we essentially were talking about zoning matters
21 that might be affected in regards to this particular
22 amendment. As I said before and I'll repeat it again,
23 our basic freedoms, freedom of speech, religion, the
24 press, and right to assemble are so important that
25 it's unnecessary for us to go in and start amending
208
1 our Constitution and putting in language that I submit
2 to you the average voter would not understand.
3 If you have the average voter pick up this
4 amendment and read the new portion that we are putting
5 in right now, they wouldn't have the faintest idea
6 what you are talking about. It has a title, which is
7 feel good, protection of religious freedom. My God,
8 anybody is in favor of protecting religious freedom,
9 but for what it does, I couldn't explain it to you,
10 and I don't think that the average voter could come
11 along and explain it to you either.
12 And I suggest to you, when we are talking about
13 one of the four basic freedoms of this country that
14 make this democracy what it is, that we should vote
15 against this particular amendment.
16 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mathis.
17 COMMISSIONER MATHIS: The American Civil
18 Liberties Union found a need for this proposal, the
19 Christian Coalition saw a need for this proposal. A
20 variety of over 50 to 60 different religious
21 organizations saw a need for this proposal and joined
22 together, despite their differences, to support this
23 proposal.
24 It is true, I think that the average citizen does
25 want to protect religious freedom, and there's issue
209
1 that this proposal addresses, and these religious
2 organizations see this. And they have called on us to
3 vote and pass this proposal and make this strong
4 statement in our Constitution, and I say let's give
5 them the right to vote on it.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Riley.
7 COMMISSIONER RILEY: A question for Commissioner
8 Connor, if I may. Commissioner, as I understand the
9 history of this, this is in response to a change in a
10 federal regulation.
11 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Federal case law.
12 COMMISSIONER RILEY: And they have asked then for
13 all states to do something similar, or at least to
14 clarify it on a state level, correct?
15 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Well, Congress sought to do
16 that on behalf of the states, and the Court said
17 Congress couldn't do that for the states, the states
18 would have to do that for themselves.
19 COMMISSIONER RILEY: So, my question is, is there
20 any reason that that cannot be clarified by the
21 Legislature in this state, and is it not also true
22 that it's been clarified in other states by the
23 Legislature and that no other state has sought the
24 need to put it in their Constitution?
25 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Very good question. Let me
210
1 answer the first question, if I may. Can this not be
2 accomplished by legislation action in this state, and
3 the answer is, I think fairly, no, it cannot. And in
4 talking with Justice Kogan before about that, here's
5 the reason why. The Legislature may not dictate to
6 the Court the standard of review in which it'll apply
7 in evaluating the laws that may burden the exercise of
8 religious liberty without violating the separation of
9 powers' principle.
10 The Court historically has been careful in
11 guarding its turf and its providence in that regard.
12 It is my understanding from a letter on behalf of
13 B'nai B'rith, that in other states the state
14 legislators have made or have passed such laws. I
15 cannot speak for what limitations, if any, may exist
16 in those states with regard to separation of powers.
17 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Any further
18 discussion? Commissioner Kogan.
19 COMMISSIONER KOGAN: This does not burden the
20 Legislature by passing this particular amendment that
21 is being proposed, does not burden the free exercise
22 of religion. As a matter of fact, if anything, if the
23 Legislature would pass this, it may very well give
24 additional rights that people may not perceive that
25 they have now, but that's not the issue.
211
1 The issue is in response to what Commissioner
2 Connor is saying, this is not an issue where the
3 Legislature would burden the free exercise of
4 religion, this is a particular matter that if the
5 Legislature saw fit, the Legislature could do it.
6 We are talking now about constitutional
7 provisions that have been holy and sacred to this
8 nation for all of these years.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Freidin, that
10 answered yours, all right. You have used up all of
11 your time. Okay, take one minute, you have used all
12 of your time on the first time around.
13 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: Ladies and gentlemen,
14 there's no magic to this standard of view, Justice
15 Kogan has applied it many times, he's applied it to
16 protect abortion rights and privacy rights, for
17 example. Where he said that the State could not act
18 in the absence of a compelling interest or in the case
19 where a compelling interest is required, the State was
20 required to use the least restrictive means in the
21 furtherance of that interest.
22 All we ask in this proposal is that we ratchet up
23 the standard of review for the protection of religious
24 liberty to the highest standard that the Court uses in
25 guarding other liberties, according to Floridians,
212
1 under the Constitution.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Ready to vote? Unlock the
3 machine and let's vote.
4 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
5 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? Lock
6 the machine and announce the vote.
7 READING CLERK: Twenty-one yeas, 14 nays,
8 Mr. Chairman.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It is defeated. All right.
10 We move to Revision 10.
11 READING CLERK: Revision 10, miscellaneous and
12 technical revisions.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, I think
15 there's an amendment on the desk that responds to
16 Commissioner Barkdull's suggestion that we term this a
17 clarifying, conforming, correcting and technical
18 rather than miscellaneous.
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. I better have it
20 read.
21 READING CLERK: By Commissioner Mills, on Page 1,
22 Line 12, delete that line and insert clarifying,
23 conforming, correcting and technical revisions.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. All in favor of
25 the amendment, say aye. Opposed like sign.
213
1 (Verbal vote taken.)
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Amendment is adopted.
3 Commissioner Mills on Revision 10. Incidentally, this
4 one does include the three that we moved over here
5 from the judicial, which are the three military
6 proposals that are also in this revision, so you will
7 note. I don't want everybody to leave, we have still
8 got to vote. This is our last round of votes.
9 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman, as you
10 described earlier, I think most all of these are
11 unanimous votes, they are technical. And we would
12 hope that this gives an opportunity to clean up some
13 provisions of the Constitution which are basically
14 clarifying.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Anybody want to
16 discuss this? If not, unlock the machine and let's
17 vote.
18 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
19 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Has everybody voted? It
20 seems to me that there's one that hasn't voted. Lock
21 the machine and announce the vote.
22 READING CLERK: Thirty-four yeas, zero nays,
23 Mr. Chairman.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, we are
25 concluded. Commissioner Barkdull.
214
1 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Mr. Chairman, Members of
2 the Commission, you are having passed out to you right
3 now a motion that I'm about to make in reference to
4 some work of the Style and Drafting Committee between
5 now and when we would come back in May. Mr. Chairman,
6 have you received one?
7 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I did. And would you read
8 it?
9 READING CLERK: Proposed order of appearance of
10 revisions on ballot. Natural Resources, Education,
11 Judiciary State Courts, Cabinet Restructure --
12 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: No.
13 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, no, what it is is that
14 he's moving that the Committee on Style and Drafting
15 be authorized to review the Commission's final
16 document and make necessary title amendment, technical
17 and grammatical corrections that do not change the
18 substance of any proposal prior to the delivery to the
19 Secretary of State.
20 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: This is a similar
21 proposal that, as I understand, the Senate uses in
22 connection with their budget process in which we used
23 at the conclusion of the Commission 20 years ago, in
24 order that when we come in here in May, that these
25 scribner matters will be taken care of.
215
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Does everybody understand
2 that? This would be scribner's errors that could be
3 corrected by Style and Drafting. All in favor, say
4 aye. Opposed?
5 (Verbal vote taken.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It's adopted. Somebody
7 handed me a proposed order of appearance of revisions
8 on the ballot, which was the way we voted them, I
9 guess. Is that right, Commissioner Mills?
10 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Mr. Chairman, there are two
11 of these that did not pass.
12 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. Strike them out,
13 strike them out.
14 COMMISSIONER MILLS: That would be 5(b) and 8.
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: 5(b) and 8 did not pass. All
16 right. Do you move that? Does Commissioner Mills,
17 Commissioner Mills, do you move the adoption of this?
18 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, sir, and I would
19 solicit any comments. What this does is, this is
20 fairly close to the order in which we have been
21 considering them. And one of the issues that we in
22 Style and Drafting discussed was an attempt to have
23 issues appear to the public that were understandable.
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. And the other aspect
25 of this is, if we find that we have made some drastic
216
1 error here in this line up of two-thirds' vote, we
2 can, in fact, alter that; isn't that correct?
3 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
4 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. So, all in favor
5 of the proposed order of appearance on the ballot --
6 Commissioner Smith.
7 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I
8 just want you to consider, Mr. Chairman, and the
9 Chairman of Style and Drafting, do we really want to
10 do this right now.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: The reason that, what I think
12 he's saying is that we won't be meeting again, and we
13 could, if you like, if we didn't do anything else at
14 that last meeting, we could adopt this at that last
15 meeting by 22 votes. No, Commissioner Barkdull says
16 that we cannot under the rules.
17 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Let me just say this then.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yeah, let's do it now because
19 I'm told by Billy that --
20 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I would have no problem with
21 doing it, except for the 25 rule, in other words, the
22 two-thirds'. If we are going to waive the rule so
23 that we can move forward, but we haven't had a chance
24 to think about this. So, I don't mind giving them
25 temporary authority to move forward, but I don't want
217
1 to have to come back and get 25 votes to move, let's
2 say, basic rights down to the end or something.
3 I don't know, I haven't thought about it. And I
4 want a chance to think about it before I have to
5 muster 25 votes to move one that I think is going to,
6 you know, because of strategy, we want to have higher
7 or lower. That's all I am saying.
8 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I don't consider this a big
9 issue, personally.
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Oh.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: But it seems to me what we
12 are trying to do is get this in some order of finality
13 pretty much. And I agree that some people may want to
14 think about this.
15 COMMISSIONER SMITH: All right. What about
16 approving it and to change it we need 22 votes instead
17 of 25 votes?
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: I think that would require a
19 waiver of the rules. I guess you could move to waive
20 the rules right now, I don't know if you would like to
21 do that.
22 COMMISSIONER SMITH: I move that we waive the
23 rules and go ahead and adopt this today. And if we
24 want to change the order, that we need 22 votes to
25 change the order instead of two-thirds'.
218
1 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Commissioner
2 Barkdull, do you have any objection to that?
3 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I would like to speak in
4 objection to it. We have got a Style and Drafting
5 Committee that's done an awful lot of work, and I
6 think we have got to give some deference to their
7 suggestions. And I don't see anything, at this point,
8 this is generally the order that we have had them in
9 and I think we ought to leave it and adopt what the
10 Chairman of Style and Drafting has recommended.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Commissioner Mills.
12 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Well, Mr. Chairman, in the
13 family spirit that we have adopted here today.
14 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Yes, but we got dysfunctional
15 there on one thing.
16 COMMISSIONER MILLS: Yes, but I think we have
17 returned now and I think that we are all proud to be
18 part of this fairly. And to me, if a waiver of the
19 rules, if it takes 22 votes to change it, that doesn't
20 really bother me because that would be a fairly
21 substantial preference.
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. What is before you
23 now, if you will listen, what is proposed is that we
24 adopt, if we adopt this, first we'll have to adopt
25 this rule change by waiver of the rules in effect,
219
1 that at the last meeting, upon a 22-vote affirmative
2 vote, the order that is in this proposal by Style and
3 Drafting, assuming we adopt it, could be changed,
4 instead of 25 votes it would take 22 votes. And that
5 is the motion made by Commissioner Smith and Chairman
6 Mills agrees to that. Commissioner Barkdull.
7 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: Well, then, that vote is
8 a vote to change the rules, which is 25 votes.
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Okay. That is 25 votes,
10 that's correct. It takes a two-thirds' vote to do
11 this. You are going to have to get 25 votes now, so
12 pay attention. We'll first vote on Commissioner
13 Smith's motion to waive the rules or to change the
14 rules so that on the last meeting on this item only
15 you can, with 22 votes, alter the way these form --
16 not the way but the order in which these appear on the
17 ballot, okay. Everybody ready? All right.
18 Open the machine and let's vote. This is on --
19 excuse me, close the machine. Is everybody going to
20 pay attention on this, or are we going to walk around?
21 Commissioner Langley, do you have something?
22 COMMISSIONER LANGLEY: You asked if we can walk
23 around and vote, yes, and chew gum, yes. It's
24 remarkable.
25 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Well, you were also making so
220
1 much noise that nobody else could hear over here.
2 That's why I asked, I thought you wanted to speak.
3 Now, who wants to speak to the motion that's been
4 made? The motion is solely related to the order in
5 which these revisions appear on the ballot. The
6 motion is that this order in which they appear on the
7 ballot can be altered at our last meeting by 22 votes
8 of the Commission. Is that clearly what the motion
9 is, Commissioner Smith?
10 COMMISSIONER SMITH: Yes, Mr. Chairman.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Now, on that
12 motion only, Commissioner Sundberg.
13 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: Has any motion been made
14 to adopt this order to begin with?
15 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: We are going to change the
16 rule before we do it.
17 COMMISSIONER SUNDBERG: All right.
18 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Or I mean, not change it, one
19 or the other. Anyone want to speak to the motion?
20 Commissioner Evans.
21 COMMISSIONER EVANS: Question. Are these going
22 to be renumbered accordingly, so that Firearms is now
23 8 and Miscellaneous is 9?
24 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: That's correct. They will be
25 renumbered to reflect the proper numbers. All right.
221
1 Now, let's vote on the motion to waive the rules as it
2 relates to the order in which they appear on the
3 ballot for the last meeting. Unlock the machine at
4 this time and we'll do it again.
5 (Vote taken and recorded electronically.)
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. Lock the machine
7 and announce the vote.
8 READING CLERK: Thirty-one yeas, zero nays,
9 Mr. Chairman.
10 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: All right. It is done. Now
11 we have to adopt a motion by Commissioner Mills on the
12 order that's presented to you, which is No. 1, Natural
13 Resources Conservation; No. 2, Education; No. 3,
14 Judiciary State Courts; No. 4, Cabinet Restructure;
15 No. 5, Basic Rights; No. 6, Local Government; No. 7,
16 Elections; No. 8, Firearms; and No. 10, Miscellaneous.
17 No, we changed 8, excuse me. Eight, all right. That
18 is the motion as it relates to the order at this time,
19 which can be amended by 22 votes at final meeting.
20 All in favor, say aye. Opposed?
21 (Verbal vote taken.)
22 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: It carries, it is now
23 adopted. Okay. We are now through. Commissioner
24 Connor. Well, we are not through.
25 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I rise to a point of order,
222
1 Mr. Chairman.
2 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Rise. You are recognized.
3 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: It's my understanding, in
4 accordance with the provisions of Rule 1.that 17,
5 members who are in the chamber are obliged under the
6 rules to vote. And it has come to my attention that
7 one of our members, Commissioner Rundle, was in the
8 Chamber, felt conflicted about 187 and did not vote.
9 I respectfully request that we revote on 187 so that
10 everybody can be on record on that proposal.
11 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: No, that's not a valid point
12 of order. A person other than a Chair does not have
13 to vote. An abstention is in effect on the vote the
14 same as a negative vote. It isn't doesn't require
15 them to vote, it says they should vote. It doesn't
16 require it like, as Commissioner Langley pointed out,
17 in effect, that I had to vote on these proposals as
18 Chair.
19 I didn't have to vote on anything but the final
20 thing. We didn't enforce that. If we are going to do
21 it, we can go back and vote on every one of them again
22 just about because there were people in the chamber
23 who didn't vote quite a few times. I'm going to rule
24 that point out of order.
25 COMMISSIONER CONNOR: I simply -- I mean, I think
223
1 everybody can appreciate the position that I'm in, it
2 failed by one vote. We placed great emphasis on the
3 rules early this morning. I thought that they applied
4 with equal vigor in the afternoon, but I understand
5 the Chair's ruling.
6 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Let me tell you, we all lost
7 one too. And we are willing to let's quit talking
8 about that and get on with some good stuff here.
9 Commissioners, I think that we -- I need to tell you
10 this, our next meeting will be on Tuesday, May 5th.
11 On the evening before, my wife and I will be hosting a
12 party at my home, I look forward to seeing you all
13 there and your spouses or significant others. We have
14 had a great day today in many ways. Some people are
15 disappointed, I'm disappointed as it relates to one
16 particular item. And I'm sure others of you share
17 disappointment for other items. Some of you are very
18 happy.
19 Most of us should be very happy for the quality
20 of the work that we have done. And I therefore want
21 you to know that your service and sacrifice and time
22 and efforts are greatly appreciated by, certainly by
23 me and the people of the state of Florida.
24 I also want to thank Commissioner Jennings.
25 Commissioner Jennings, I would like to thank you on
224
1 behalf of the Commission for your service to us, but
2 also that you so unselfishly allowed the Commission,
3 as President of the Senate to use these facilities,
4 and most particularly allowed us to use your staff.
5 Her staff defines excellence and they are true
6 professionals, they are the greatest group that I have
7 worked with. And, now, wait a minute.
8 (Applause.)
9 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: And if Johnny Gillespi and
10 the Senate engrossing staff, if you are still watching
11 on TV, even though Commissioner Langley hasn't said
12 anything lately, you are still watching up there, we
13 want you to know that we have a special thanks for the
14 help of you people who have worked so hard and your
15 engrossing staff and keeping us up to speed. With
16 that, Commissioner Barkdull, I would entertain a
17 motion.
18 COMMISSIONER BARKDULL: I move we recess until
19 nine a.m. on Tuesday, March 5th, 1998 -- May 5th.
20 CHAIRMAN DOUGLASS: Without objection, we are in
21 recess.
22 (Session concluded.)
23
24
25
225
1 CERTIFICATE
2
STATE OF FLORIDA:
3
COUNTY OF LEON:
4
I, MONA L. WHIDDON, and KRISTEN L. BENTLEY, Court
5 Reporters, certify that I was authorized to and did
stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that
6 the transcript is a true and complete record of my
stenographic notes.
7
DATED this ______ day of ____________, 1998.
8
9
10 ___________________________________
MONA L. WHIDDON
11
12
13 __________________________________
KRISTEN L. BENTLEY
14 Court Reporters
Division of Administrative Hearings
15 1230 Apalachee Parkway
Tallahassee, Florida 32399-3060
16 (850) 488-9675 Suncom 278-9675
Fax Filing (850) 921-6847
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
|
